The Biggest Motivator (Pain or Pleasure) | Zak Kuhn #623

Lachlan and Zak Kuhn explore the layers of Zak's life, from his journey in podcasting to his experiences in the music industry.

They discuss the hustle behind securing high-profile guests like Bobby Bones, the birth of Zak's Nashville Briefing, and the importance of perseverance in the face of doubt. 

Zak shares insights on finding contentment and setting ambitious goals, emphasizing the thrill of overcoming challenges and the value of supportive relationships.

He reflects on his personal journey, the sacrifices made for his passion, and the strategies he employs to build a strong network. The dialogue emphasizes the balance between personal fulfillment and professional ambition, highlighting the significance of enjoying the process while striving for growth.

Chapters

• 0:00 Personal Insights on Podcasting and Friendship
• 6:29 The Quest for Bobby Bones
• 12:56 Inspiration and Motivation in Podcasting
• 16:25 From Newsletter to Media Company
• 21:43 Overcoming Challenges and Seeking Satisfaction
• 32:15 Navigating the Entrepreneurial Rollercoaster
• 39:30 Balancing Priorities and Making Sacrifices
• 48:24 Building Networks and Elevating Influence
• 54:30 Strategic Networking for Success
• 59:31 Building Strong Connections Through Networking

Transcript

Lachlan Stuart: 0:00

Like I'm very excited. Are you excited?

Zak Kuhn: 0:04

I'm thrilled.

Lachlan Stuart: 0:05

What do you mean?

Zak Kuhn: 0:07

I don't like being on this end, though I prefer being on the interviewing end. I don't like being interviewed.

Lachlan Stuart: 0:12

That's why I'm so excited, though, because I've seen and listened to so much that you've done and most of the chats that I've listened to where you've been on the other side, it's been more so about business and what you do, not actually who you are like. Obviously it's an extension of who you are, but, like I want this to be like an episode of peeling back layers of onions, does that?

Zak Kuhn: 0:32

scare you? No, not really. I don't know you look very scared. You're like crap. I gotta change the whole topic of the episode. I'm trying to scare him.

Lachlan Stuart: 0:45

Yeah, man, you started sweating. I'm an open.

Zak Kuhn: 0:48

Listen first of all. No, that's just my pits. I'm an open book here and I will talk about anything with you, lockie, because you bring a lot of honesty to your show and to your adventures and to what you do. So that makes me want to give it right back to you on this episode, right here.

Lachlan Stuart: 1:13

So I'm an open book. I feel like that's like a reciprocating, greater relationship, one where we just got each other, we get to really connect. And I feel like the moment that we really connected was on that road trip, listening to Larry King going down the Malibu coast. That was a moment.

Lachlan Stuart: 1:25

I do think that was a moment. Yeah, that was a special moment and, for those who are tuning in, I'm going to come back to that, but we've got the man, the myth, the legend, zachary Kahn, on the show. Zach, thank you so much for being here. Dude, I feel like I've just nabbed an exclusive interview it's great to be here but we have to correct.

Zak Kuhn: 1:46

The last name is pronounced kuhn with a u sound. But most people don't get it right and that's fine. But but it is great to be here and I'm thrilled to be part of the man that can community can you let that roll off the tongue one more time?

Lachlan Stuart: 2:01

the k Cune Cune, yeah yeah Cool. You did a little tongue roll or something and I was like that's very cool.

Zak Kuhn: 2:10

Yeah, Well, you know I'm a cool guy and my tongue rolls come with that.

Lachlan Stuart: 2:17

But we did have that great road trip that day and being able to travel with you. So, for those who don't know, zach has been playing guitar and been on tour with us and Shepard in the States and it's been very cool to get to know you because we first met in 2022. And when Amy and I were visiting Nashville, we met yourself through Michael Chase, a mutual friend, and then you came out to Australia for the CMC Festival and we got to show around like our local cafe and you got to meet and enjoy ipswich, which I know you loved, and, uh, you want to come desperately back to australia.

Zak Kuhn: 2:54

I can see it in your eyes no, I did have a great time on that trip. The only thing with australia is it's just so far, but I'd want to go to australia literally my whole life. I've always been fascinated by it and the thing I find fascinating about touring with you guys is that we grew up on literally I don't think you can grow up further apart than I grew up and the Shepard crew grew up and all of our pop culture references are so similar. We're all listening to the same music and the same shows and I know it's all kind of like westernized I guess, or whatever. We live in a pretty small world with the internet and everything, but we could have grown up two houses down from each other, even though we were all grown up on opposite sides of the world. So to me that's fascinating. I was dying to get to Australia and I had an amazing time. You guys were the best hosts. You took me everywhere.

Lachlan Stuart: 3:49

It was amazing. I wish we could do better and we will do better, but you host your own podcast. Why do?

Zak Kuhn: 3:54

you feel that way? Why do you feel like you? What do you mean? You wish you had done better. Wish you had done better on what?

Lachlan Stuart: 4:00

I wish we took you to the islands. There's so many things we've spoken about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no you're right.

Zak Kuhn: 4:05

Actually, you're right. None of that happened and that should happen next time.

Lachlan Stuart: 4:10

Yes, so we will make sure that you get the true blue Aussie experience of the islands, the four-wheel driving, the red dirt and seeing some of those dogs out there. That's what you want to do, that's what you really come to Australia to see, so you can go back to Nashville, you can go back to New York and really tell those stories. That's what we want, so we'll make that happen.

Lachlan Stuart: 4:30

Next time you're back out here, why don't you venture across the seas? But you're the host of the Zach Kuhn Show and you've had incredible guests, notably I'm going to start with Shepard, obviously, but you've had Brad Paisley, bobby Bones, colby Calais, and one of the cool things when I first met you and this is one of the things that fascinates me about you, zach is, having spent so much time with you, seeing how much you hustle and when I say hustle, ladies and gentlemen, you're a very motivated individual to achieve what you're working towards, and I'll allow you to unpack that and talk about that in a moment but when we first met, you were like I really want this guy on my podcast. Actually, I'll let you take that story of Bobby Bones so I don't butcher it.

Zak Kuhn: 5:15

So I think Bobby Bones is a very interesting character because in certain worlds, he is incredibly, incredibly famous. In the country music world, he is the Howard Stern of country music. He has the biggest morning radio show in America. He's listened to by millions and millions and millions of people every month. And in a world where radio means less and less and country music radio still carries a lot of weight, and Bobby Bones has a lot of influence we're talking private jet mega mansion. I mean, this guy is a big, big deal and when I was in college, I would listen to his radio show every single morning because I wanted to move to Nashville and this is really the personality behind Nashville. He represents Nashville and the Nashville music industry and I would listen to his show every morning because it gave me insight into Nashville, into the Nashville music business, all of it Really, really, really a big hero of mine. So I started my podcast in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic. I'd always done interviews and I hosted a college radio show and all this other stuff, but I really started the podcast in the pandemic 2020.

Zak Kuhn: 6:29

Fast forward, I was approaching my 100th episode of the podcast. Yeah, and on the 100th episode of the Bobby Bones podcast, he makes this statement that I think he just pulled out of his ass. But he said you're not a real podcast until you hit 100 episodes, and this is our 100th episode. So now I feel like the Bobby cast is a real podcast because we finally hit 100 episodes, and I had listened to him say that very much prior to my 100th episode of my podcast, but I just remembered that. So as my 100th episode was approaching, I said what if I got Bobby Bones on the 100th episode of the podcast to help make me a real boy? He was going to be like my Geppetto. Is that the right character?

Lachlan Stuart: 7:17

reference.

Zak Kuhn: 7:18

Let's keep rolling with it, right. So he was going to make me a real podcast. So I had the idea, you know I. I emailed management. It's not that hard to get his contacts. You know his manager's contact if you live in nashville. So I emailed management and, uh, they didn't get back to me. I followed up probably five times and then I emailed this publicist and his publicist said yeah, he's very busy, you know he's not going to be able to do this, are you like? No way. So then I said, well, I got to make this. Really, I have to get creative here. I have to get really creative.

Zak Kuhn: 7:53

So the first thing I did was I just took my phone and I made an Instagram video that said Bobby Bones, zach Hewn here, 100th episode of the podcast. I'd love to have you come on, but I really made a good pitch, crickets. He at the time had released a children's book and my next move was to do a live reading of his children's book on Instagram. So I went on Instagram Live, opened the book, did a reading, said Bobby Bones, come on to the show, crickets. My next move was to go on Cameo, the site where you can get famous people to send you personalized videos. And I said who's the most famous country artist on here that I can find? It was Carly Pierce. I asked Carly Pierce to ask Bobby to come on to the show. She did. We threw that up on Instagram Crickets, okay.

Zak Kuhn: 8:47

And I think I did a couple other things too. Now I have this mentor, who is this incredibly accomplished woman in the live entertainment space and, with all of her best intentions, she said to me she said I think you should stop this. She said this is not a good look, it is too eager and it's desperate and you might piss him off. And and she said look, I think I think you've gone too far, it's not gonna work. And I really took that to heart because I didn't want to be the guy who was begging for bobby bones to come on and then was going to fail. I didn't want to do that. That's lame. But my gut said I had to do one more move. I actually had two more moves, but I was willing to make one more move.

Zak Kuhn: 9:34

The final move we made was I took a billboard out in the center of Nashville on a very busy street. It said Bobby Bones helped the Zach Kuhn show become a real podcast, and I took a photo of it and the billboard was only up for about a day because that was all I could really afford and I knew that actually, the I knew that the act of taking out the billboard would be more important than the billboard itself. Seth Godin has this great quote when he talks about pizza and he says the only difference between good pizza and bad pizza is the inconvenience it is to make good pizza. It's incredibly inconvenient. I think about that too If you think about great dance routines or if you go to the ballet. Why is that entertaining? Because it is inconvenient to put it together. Something that is incredibly inconvenient if you think about it. That's usually what we enjoy. We like seeing inconvenient things as humans. That's my theory. So, the act of taking out the billboard even though I knew he probably wouldn't even see the billboard, I knew it would do well on social media, because it is so inconvenient to take out a billboard, I was so serious, posted the photo of the billboard and Bobby Bones and it went viral within our community, the Nashville community. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comments and likes, everybody tagging Bobby Bones and finally, at probably 11 o'clock at night or whatever he said, okay, let's do it. And to his credit, because we had a limited window to make it happen in order to hit the 100th episode, I think.

Zak Kuhn: 11:16

Two or three days later I was in his house. He gave me a 45-minute window. He showed up, he was amazing and it's a great. It's a great, great, great interview that I hope people go back and listen to because it still stands up and you can kind of hear my excitement in it. But also he's just so great what he does being a guest and being on, being a radio guy and um, and we were able to pull it off and since we've become friendly.

Zak Kuhn: 11:39

But the a couple takeaways from that is one is there's that meme that sometimes you see on instagram of a guy digging for gold and it's like you never and the caption is like you never know how close you were to gold when you turn around and the image is the guy digging for gold with like a little bit of a dirt, a little bit of dirt separating him between gold, and if he just took maybe one more dig of a shovel, he'd hit gold.

Zak Kuhn: 12:03

I think about that all the time with this specific situation, because I really was close to turning back and I don't know how you figure out when the line is to keep pushing or to turn back, but if I had not taken out that billboard, it wouldn't have happened. So there's a lesson there in perseverance. And the other thing, too is I did something similar with someone else and uh, his team actually reached me out and reached out to me and uh told me to stop doing what I was doing. So I did. He then got new representation, new team. I said I'm gonna try this again, and uh and the second, and they told me again that to stop. And the point of the story is this doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. And I have a great story with the Bobby Bones thing.

Lachlan Stuart: 12:49

That's probably how you find out when it's too much, when you get told to repeatedly stop, but until that point you got to keep digging. But what did it mean to you, though, to be able to have that interview, and what has it opened up for you since then?

Zak Kuhn: 13:07

It was when I started the podcast, there were a handful of people that I really wanted to get on, that were kind of like dream guests.

Zak Kuhn: 13:11

And bobby was one of those guests because I just kind of looked up to the way he's done his career and built his career and just to get into the room with him to feel his energy and to feel like you know, like a lot of you know, it's being on the radio and being a personality and hosting a podcast like this.

Zak Kuhn: 13:32

I think it can sometimes not seem like hard work, especially if someone's really good at it, like Bobby is.

Zak Kuhn: 13:39

But when you get in a room with him and you can ask him questions and you can see the way that he can take your question and I've interviewed hundreds of people at this point there are good guests and there are bad guests and you try to give people the best opportunity to be interesting and you try to throw out questions that allow your guest the opportunity to be their best selves.

Zak Kuhn: 14:01

But some people are better at it than others and to see Bobby to be able to run with the questions I was throwing out to him was really inspiring and it made me go oh, there's room here to improve at this and I don't even know what improvement is, because we're just here talking but we're trying to capture a vibe and a little bit of interest and maybe a little bit of entertainment and a little bit of education. And Bobby was able to accomplish all of those things in our conversation, which I was really inspired by and I've interviewed him a couple times since and he really can capture this energy and this magic when he talks and that was a very cool thing to experience firsthand.

Lachlan Stuart: 14:42

You said you've interviewed him a couple of times and then you mentioned a moment or a couple of minutes earlier like private jets and stuff. Have you had any cool experiences with him outside of interviewing and stuff?

Zak Kuhn: 14:53

We've had some fun times traveling together and I interviewed him on a red carpet at the ACM Awards and I interviewed him for a magazine that we did. I interviewed him in the iHeart office and he's been very generous with traveling at different times.

Lachlan Stuart: 15:12

That's a good. Yeah, I'll put it there. Yeah, We'll leave it there. But you obviously also are the founder and CEO of Nashville Briefing and it's like you cover music and watching you do that and learning a little bit more about that on the drive. When I got to pick your brain around, what it means to you, how you put it together, I found it fascinating. But what inspired you or, for the audience, what inspired you to launch into that as well, on top of everything else that you're doing? Because you are spinning a lot of plates and you're a very efficient, you're a very motivated individual and being around people like yourself makes me want to do more. Just being in your presence as much as you're always on. I'm like man. I could do a little bit more so for you with the magazine.

Zak Kuhn: 15:57

I feel that way looking at you, because I'm not as physical as you are and I'm never going to do this challenge that you're about to do 58 marathons in 58 days. I'm never going to do that in my life, but when I see you do it it makes me go. If locky can do that, maybe I can push myself physically a little more. And we're trying to get on some physical exercise here. I was working out this morning, locky, I just, I just want you to know.

Zak Kuhn: 16:19

But um tell, yeah, get out of here, but the the newsletter I I started the newsletter really out of. I was at the ACM Awards in Vegas, which is a big country music award show, and I was at this lunch with a group of publicists who were saying that they wished that there was another publication that would cover the country music news that they could work with. There really wasn't anything in the space would cover the country music news that they could work with. There really wasn't anything in the space. And I just sort of had this thought that I could do that and I had this confidence to it that I felt like I could do it. The idea really excited me and I remember I told a couple of friends who I was with and I said Guys, I think I'm going to start this country music newsletter. It's come out every week. It's going to cover the country music industry. And they said to me they literally said don't do that. They said don't even tell people you're going to do that because nobody follows through on that kind of thing. And then it's going to be embarrassing if you tell people you're going to do it and you don't follow through. And that really motivated me to do it because I said no really motivated me to do it. Because I said no, no, I'm gonna show all you guys I'm going to be able to do this. So it started really simply. I think I experienced this all the time. Maybe you see this too. People come to me all the time on advice on how to start a podcast, and my advice is always to just start.

Zak Kuhn: 17:39

My early episodes were recorded over an iPhone with a little app. The audio is bad, the questions are bad, the artwork is bad, it's bad, but there's no way I could get to where I am now without going through those reps of bad podcasts, and I'm sure I'm going to look back in a couple years and think the podcasts I'm doing now are cringe or whatever. So the newsletter started out with me just writing it every day and I would send it to two people my brother and a friend of mine who worked in media because I felt like it was a safe space. I felt like they would give me good feedback while not judging me or the quality of my work. So initially it was those two for a couple of weeks and I was writing the newsletter every day and eventually I said, okay, I'm going to bring 10 friends into this and started sending it to 10 friends and I started taking feedback and talking to them about what kind of information they would want to see in the newsletter that would be helpful. Now there's 12 people on a MailChimp account. Okay, this is not rocket science. I don't even think I had a logo. Eventually I get a logo made, etc. And those friends started to say, can we share this with people in our office? Because I think it could really be helpful. And then I knew I was starting to make something that was valuable. My friends were willing to share it with someone else because it would make them look good to share it with their boss or with their coworker or whatever. It was going to give value to the people around them, which is always what I'm trying to do with the national briefing, because otherwise there's no point in it. So that's when it started to spread.

Zak Kuhn: 19:17

But I was working another job at the time, so this newsletter thing was kind of a side project time. So this newsletter thing was kind of a side project Come COVID. I was unemployed, sitting at home with nothing but a newsletter and I said let me see if I can really make this newsletter work. It's the only thing I have. I probably thought I was going to find another job, but I was able to really work on the newsletter, which has become much more of a media company. We're now doing print issues. The podcast is looped in the website. We do events. It's really become just a music industry media company and that was the genesis of it. That's where it started.

Lachlan Stuart: 20:00

You've been rejected a lot, or not even rejected. You've had a lot of people doubt you, even just from what you've said there. People said don't do the newsletter. There was also people telling you not to contact them anymore or continue pursuing. Yes, getting that rocking 100 episode with Bobby Bones. What drives you to keep going? Because I find it very fascinating with people. There's generally people who listen to that advice and they play small and they end up quite resentful or constantly ask themselves what could have been. And then there's people like yourself who find a way to just keep going and I'm very curious as to are you motivated more by the pain of not being enough or the pleasure of what could be, of not being enough, or the pleasure of what could be, maybe a little bit of both.

Zak Kuhn: 20:47

I also think that that's a very good question. I'm not very scared of failure. Maybe I don't really care what people think, and I also don't really I like when I pull something off and people. When I pulled off the Bobby Bones thing, there was a period of time where I was walking around Nashville and random people would come up to me and be like you're the guy who got Bobby Bones on the podcast and that's cool. But that really is not what motivates me. I like the challenge of pulling it off and the feeling of success after pulling it off, and I think that's what really excites me, and the idea of pulling it off not even for success sake, but just for the gratification that I pulled something off that was challenging or hard.

Zak Kuhn: 21:43

And I also think that I also get talked out of a lot of things all the time. I'll have ideas that I'll discuss with people and people will say that's not a great idea because X, y, z and have you thought about this? And a lot of times those people are right. And then I look back on it and I go, oh my God, I can't believe. I thought that was a good idea, or I'll try the idea and it'll fail and I go that person was right, it wasn't that idea. But I just think there's. At the end of the day, there's certain things that I do that I just know are right, and I also have a lot of support from just friends and family and people that are the first to If I pitch them a crazy idea and it seems fun or funny to just be like yeah go for it.

Zak Kuhn: 22:31

And I also. There are people in my life. I had a mentor in my life at one point who was such a naysayer Everything I would talk, every idea I would talk about. He would just shoot down and be like I would talk like every idea I would talk about. He would just shoot down and be like, ah, that's not a great idea, right? Yeah, that's that would. That'll never work.

Zak Kuhn: 22:47

Or, uh, and I just stopped getting lunch with that guy, like I just couldn't be around him. It was like, and he was a smart guy, but it was like I just can't hang around you and I literally cut him years and that's harsh. And if you wanted to reconnect right now, I'd be happy to reconnect with them and get lunch. But I just really try to hang around people that are going to be positive and optimistic and help contribute to what I'm trying to do, and I'm not afraid to cut people out. But I'm also more okay working alone than working with other people, like some people say, oh, you should have, you should bring in a partner, and I go why would I want a partner? I don't want to. I don't want to work with anyone. That being said, I have an amazing team on national briefing that I can't work without, but but so much of what I do is just is, it's just me, and you know I'm just trying to challenge myself to do really cool stuff.

Lachlan Stuart: 23:45

It's cool to hear that because I can relate a lot to that through the sense of wanting to do hard things. And there is like a certain sense of stuff when people say you can't do that or you shouldn't do that. I constantly get that and part of me is the things that I do, much like what you're doing, zach. It's not so much about the thing in itself and achieving that outcome, it's more so what am I capable of? Because every time I try to stretch myself, like you've done with the magazine, the podcast, getting Bobby on and where you're going. It requires a better version of you like maybe different connections, maybe you have to solve certain problems and that in itself is the satisfaction.

Lachlan Stuart: 24:27

And I think part of you said pain and pleasure motivate that. It would be the same for me the pain of staying where I was or even regressing to where I was I don't want that but the pleasure of what I could be or who I could be, and the influence that I could have, which is still so unknown, and that excites me. And I think I'll lean on pain when I need to kick up the ass and if I need a little bit of inspiration, I'll move towards the pleasure side of things, and that's what enables us to go, and I feel so many people that would be listening to this struggle to get moving because they're so focused on the outcome and whether it's a good or a bad outcome that defines them. And for you, it sounds like, zach, that it's just that next step around. Okay, I've overcome various things to achieve this Awesome pat on the back. Now, what's next? So do you worry about? Well, actually, first question do you feel content with where you're at?

Zak Kuhn: 25:28

Well, first of all, I want to comment on one other thing going back, which is I also think about. We're recording this in November and it is end of year. People always think about the end of the year. Part of what happens is I get to this point in the middle of the year where I go go. Have I done enough to make this year count? And I really feel that genuinely, and I usually like to do a couple crazy things every year so I can look back on it and say this was a productive year, because I did a couple crazy things and other stuff too. Takes a lot to look back on a year and have it be productive, but when I think about the bobby stunt, that was like a monumental moment of that whole year. And then there was another thing I did that year too. Within the same week I made my Broadway debut in New York in the pit of Wicked playing guitar, and I had six days to get ready to go into the pit and that was another lifelong dream and I was able to do both those things in about a four-week window.

Zak Kuhn: 26:29

And there's stuff this year. There's interviews I've done. The print issues we started doing this year have been monumental. So I always think it's fun to have a couple things every year that are huge and monumental and I feel like that makes me feel like I'm doing enough. To tie it into the question that you just asked, I feel like when I'm doing things that are crazy challenging, crazy hard, I do have more of a feeling of like I am doing enough, but it comes and goes. It's a constant balance of I really do feel satisfied. When I had Bradad paisley on my podcast this year, that really felt like, okay, I'm doing something right and I really felt that. I was just in la last week and I interviewed for my podcast the ceo of fender guitars and I've been playing fender guitars my whole life and I flew to la to do the interview. I was in LA for about 48 hours last 32 hours did the interview and that was a really satisfying feeling of I'm doing something right in the space that I want to be doing and that makes me feel really good.

Zak Kuhn: 27:36

But sometimes I feel like I'm not doing enough. Right now I'm struggling with something, which is I was going through this phase where my podcast was getting massive views on YouTube. I was cutting up clips and across my clips on episodes, I was getting millions of views and now I'm putting out content that, in my mind, is equally as high and the views are down. So I'm trying to hack it. I'm trying to say do I need to change my thumbnails? Today I'm ABing two different thumbnails on the same video that you can do with YouTube, and I'm doing the same thing with titles and I'm playing with my titles and I'm trying to figure out is it guests that spike my views? And that is really frustrating to me and sometimes I catch myself going oh, the reason the views are down is because the podcast sucks. Nobody wants to listen.

Zak Kuhn: 28:28

That's the internal conversation I have with myself when I'm in the shower in the morning and I'm stuck with only my thoughts. Reference Seth Godin again, but he has this other quote that the really the important thing that I try to think about is the practice, and I try to get my practice right. Seth wrote a whole book about, called the Practice, which is a great read on this topic. But I try to hold myself in the belief and understanding that the practice is the only thing I can control. The only thing I can control is doing episodes of my podcast every week and running tests to try to hack the algorithm and playing with thumbnails, and if something's not working, the thing I can control is trying to do other things to try to fix it and the outcome is the outcome.

Zak Kuhn: 29:22

And it's funny because people sometimes say to me oh, I just listened to your podcast episode and I loved it. And that's funny because people sometimes say to me oh, I just listened to your podcast episode and I loved it, and that's always great. But it's always weird to me because I actually don't make these podcast episodes, even though I want people to listen to them. This is going to sound crazy. I want people to listen to the podcast and the more people listen to it, the more money you can make on advertising and the more your profile can grow and you get better guests. But I do the podcast for myself because I love hosting the episodes every week and I love the practice of having the conversations, becoming a better asker of questions, becoming a better podcaster. This week I'm doing episodes on the podcast of guests that I think are not Bobby Bones and are not Andy Mooney, the CEO offender, and that's just as exciting because I'm interviewing people who don't have that crazy career trajectory, but they've done amazing stuff in their own right. And how do I show that in the podcast and engage people and get people interested? And that's its own challenge. And I know that I recorded a couple of episodes this week that are not going to get as many views as I think this episode with the CEO offender is going to get. But that's not why I do the podcast. I do it for just the practice of doing it every week and I really enjoy it. If you don't enjoy that, maybe you shouldn't start a podcast, but that's why I do it.

Zak Kuhn: 30:48

And to answer your original question, I go in and out of phases of feeling like I'm doing enough, but most of the time I do not. I I get frustrated because what I actually think is I don't have enough time. I I feel like I'm doing everything I can do because I work all the can. I curse, I work all the fucking time lock. You don't understand like I work so much. So I I sometimes don't think that I'm not doing enough, but sometimes what I honestly think is that what I am doing is not good enough or it's not, it's not gonna work, or I'm doing the wrong things and that really stresses me out. I'm doing something pretty much every moment of the day just about, or I'm taking a nap, um, but what does really stress me out is that what I'm doing is not enough, or it's not going to be, or it's not going to work, or that. Not that what I'm doing is not enough, but that the quality of the work is not good enough. That stresses me out.

Lachlan Stuart: 31:57

I can relate to everything you've just said and I feel like and I've said this to Amy and Emma and stuff before I feel like you're me like a couple of years ago, when I started in business 10 years ago this year, and I definitely you take it back to what you were talking about. What's it like to start a podcast? Even the same with what's it like to start a business In the beginning? Everything you do sucks like it does. You don't have systems, you don't know how to write content or market or even deliver your service very well, but that's what you've got to figure out along the way. And then you'll go through times where, for me, I'll have big years financially or I'll land a client who's got a really big profile, or same with the podcast. I'll have massive months of downloads and I'm like I've hit it, let's go, let's take off here of downloads. And I'm like I've hit it, let's go, let's take off here. And then it crashes and you're like what is it? Is it the thumbnail, is it the guests? All of the things that you said, or have I not marketed myself enough? And it's like this roller coaster that is fun when you become aware of that. That's part of the way I see it as part of life.

Lachlan Stuart: 33:02

But when I was starting out, I just thought I had to be burning in this upward trajectory. So when it wasn't going that direction, I would be working literally from 5 am to like 10 plus at night, big days, and I was to the point where I wouldn't eat food. I was always under eating. Training was sacrificed because I had this burning desire to prove myself and also I wanted to see what I was capable of. And to your point as well, when you start thinking about maybe I'm not doing things well, how could I do them better? You mentioned you've got a great team behind you with the Nashville Briefing. I then went maybe I need a business partner, and so I got into a business partnership which absolutely tanked and it cost me a lot of money, and I recognized which you already know for yourself it's like that's not the route for me. I just need to work out how I'm going to do this.

Lachlan Stuart: 33:54

But the main thing or the one thing that has kept me going and I assume it's the one thing that's keeping you going is you just love what you do. You have done it before you got paid and you still continue to do it, even though you may not get paid as much as you will eventually get paid with through the fact that you just love interviewing people. Like I'm so curious about learning more about you and the last 15 minutes was so insightful for me that week in, week out, I'll show up because I love learning about people and it's sort of. One of my major sponsors Yesterday said to me I was like I can't believe how much support I've got for this run.

Lachlan Stuart: 34:33

You know the companies that have partnered with us and everything, and he's like Lockie. You've got to recognize that this is the last X amount of years of you. Showing up consistently is the reason why brands want to partner with you. So, even though you struggled for all of those years and you felt like you weren't making progress or you weren't good enough or what you were doing wasn't good enough, it is. So take this. I wanted to share that because I can definitely relate to. The question that I had next was what will it take for you to feel like you've arrived, like you've made that point.

Zak Kuhn: 35:05

I don don't know. I think about that too a lot, and I don't know if I'll ever feel that way, because sometimes I think about, sometimes I try to put myself in the in the shoes of people that I really admire, and I go okay, if I had everything that Bobby Bones has, would I feel like I had enough, or I made it, and I always think, well, yes, but then I would want to do these other things, or I would want to add to it, or I would want to do something. So I don't know when that is, but something that. But I think that the like right now it's the phase of the company where everything is working and it's great. But if a couple clients cancel their advertising, or if a couple like if, if something happens, you know, the house is a little shaky. If something happens, the house is a little shaky. And I think when the house feels like, okay, even if a hurricane came through and broke some windows or a tree fell on half of it or whatever, it would still survive, then I think it would be a little bit more like I've really built something powerful here. But it's interesting because even at this stage of the company, we're already selling advertising for next year, 2025. And the advertising that we sold for 2025 is not even advertising that we've really gone out and pitched. It's clients coming to us and locking in space for next year. So I do sometimes think I don't even know if I could shut this down, because all of a sudden I'm locked into doing certain things next year, whether I want to or not, and I do. But I'm locked in because I have advertisers now who are paying for it, so now I'm committed to do it.

Zak Kuhn: 37:05

So I don't know it's a good question and I don't know if I have the answer and I might never get to that point. But hopefully you can just feel a little more. You know, I feel like I turned down a lot of social things to work on my projects, to work on my projects, and I think lately I've started to try and not do that as much, because you look back on a lot of things and you go, oh I don't even remember what I was working on, but I missed that social thing, and then when you do do social things, they stand out in your head more. So I'm trying to do To go be present during more social things, and I think that when you have the confidence to show up for really important social things and not be worried that your company is going to fall apart. If you go out for one night or do something, that might be the time when you feel a little more secure or confident in what you've built. But I don't know. It's a tough question. What do you think?

Lachlan Stuart: 38:09

Well, I think a lot about this and I've thought a lot about it, especially as we've moved overseas and getting married and things like that, and I work with a lot of CEOs and very successful people and I always. There was a book that I read a number of years ago and I think I spoke about this on your podcast the top five regrets of the dying by Bronnie Waugh. She's an Australian palliative care nurse and basically she started gaining insights and you know, making research around what people regretted on their deathbed. And when I started reading that and I then started talking to my clients and saw the positions they were in, there were certain things that I loved and I really aspired to have. But quite often we focus on what people have, not what they sacrificed or missed out on to get there. So, even a lot now and it will be where we go from here what I want to understand about people is what they sacrifice and what goes on up here in order to achieve that, because that then helps me understand from a bigger picture perspective around. Am I prepared to do that? So in the beginning of business, I was prepared to do anything to have my own business and do it for ego, do it for money. Do it for like I felt good business. And do it for ego. Do it for money, do it for like I felt good.

Lachlan Stuart: 39:30

As I've gotten older once again, a lot of men that I work with they aren't happy in their careers. They've got themselves locked into a position where, financially, they have to stick it out because they've got mortgages, a lot of responsibilities, families etc. That are used to this level of income, but as a result, they've sacrificed. They might be on their second marriage or their marriage is not very good, their health is shocking and they don't spend any time with their friends. So when I look at that, I'm like I don't want those things. No amount of money is worth that to me. So to answer your question when you've asked it back, zach, is I look at that and I go, okay, I want that thing, but I don't want these things. So what would it look like in my business and in my life for me to be able to have that and those? Because if I just said, oh, it's not possible, I'm not practicing what I preach Now I'm not saying it's easy, but the life that I've built. Now I earn a certain amount of income. And when I hit that level of income, my goal was okay, how do I maintain this income while traveling? How do I maintain this income while getting to do awesome things that I want to do the 58 marathons, for example? How do I maintain that income while getting to do whatever I want with my wife? And that's then shifted. How I've had to structure my business but also structure my time. That's then shifted. How I've had to structure my business but also structure my time.

Lachlan Stuart: 40:53

One of the biggest fears that I had, zach, that you mentioned earlier, was if I step away, the house of cards could fall, and that is freaking scary because you know how much time and energy and sacrifice you've put into building that. But the only way I was able to find out whether it would stand or crumble was to take time away, and through that time away I was able to go okay, that needs to be fine-tuned. I need a better system here. I maybe need to, whatever it was, to sort of deal with that, and that's made my business more bulletproof, but it's also allowed me to mentally separate myself to invest in other areas.

Lachlan Stuart: 41:27

Now some people, business isn't their priority. It might be. Hey, I spend a lot of time with my family and I work nine to five, which is completely fine, but I want to get my health back, okay. So how do I start managing that? And that's where we look at, I guess, scheduling time, and for me I've zoomed out a little bit and I go okay, the things that they represent. So money, my marriage, my time with my friends and the hobbies that I have is health is a very important value, adventure is a very important value, connection is a very important value and freedom is a very important value. And how I get those will change through different phases of my life and that, to me, is what's most important. So most of the decisions that I make and sorry for the long-winded answer, we'll come back to that Is this going to help me 10 years' time? Is this still going to align with health?

Lachlan Stuart: 42:23

And, similar to what you said, I've cut people out of my life because I haven't felt connected to them anymore. That season's passed, but there's new people that have come in and I'm still experiencing connection that's ticked just with different people. And then freedom. Freedom for me is mental I don't want to feel attached to my career where I can't step away, but it's also financial and time. So if I do have children, I can be a stay-at-home dad if I want, or if I do want to take two months off and run around the world or run around those countries, I can still do that and not be able to pay my mortgage. And to me, that sort of helped me with that and it's been so hard to do. Zach, in regards to stepping back, but the best thing that I did was move like moving to America really helped me reset a lot of relationships that I guess were holding me back. So that was a long-winded answer there.

Zak Kuhn: 43:18

No, that makes a lot of sense. And I was the kid that you know. I went to music school and I played guitar. I was the kid that on Friday night, while everyone was out partying, I was in my parents' basement learning how to play guitar. Experiences because I was playing guitar.

Zak Kuhn: 43:46

And looking back, I feel both ways about it, because all the stuff that you see in the movies I didn't really do that in high school, a little bit towards the end of my senior year when I was already in college. But then I think if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't be able to play guitar and there's no way I would have learned or have had the time to put that much time into it. And I and now I think about I'm so grateful that I put that time in when I was younger to learn the instrument, because now I don't have time to practice guitar for five, six, eight hours a day. Yeah, so, so it's, so it's.

Zak Kuhn: 44:18

It's a funny thing where, you know, I don't know where the balance is, but you know I try to just do whatever I want to do most in that moment and if that's working out or not working out, but working on a project, that's what it is where sometimes I will crave the feeling that I need to go out and be social or I need to hang with someone or just be. I'll get lonely on a Friday night and a lot of Friday nights I'm home working, but sometimes I'll just be. You know, I'll get lonely on a Friday night and a lot of Friday nights I'm home, working, but sometimes I'll just say I got to get out and hang with some friends or do something. So yeah, so it's always a sliding scale, lockie.

Zak Kuhn: 44:53

It's all over the place.

Lachlan Stuart: 44:56

And I think, if we were to look at that, I feel like life's always full of regret and people are trying to avoid having regrets, which is why we overthink things or we don't want to. You know, FOMO is the word it's about like, which regret could I live with? Because you're very clear on what you're working towards, zach, and not everyone is, and I feel like I am as well, and there's people who have absolutely no idea. And to those people I would be like just go, have as many new experiences as possible until you find the things that you enjoy, and then maybe they might lead to careers or social groups, et cetera. But when you find that thing that you can't stop thinking about, which you've obviously found, it is very hard and it is very even for me to say to you hey, stop doing that. I couldn't do that because I don't know what really motivates you and why you want to do it and where you hope it's going to take you. And so for me, oh, yeah, yeah, no, keep going no, no, no, you go.

Zak Kuhn: 45:53

Well, I was gonna say there was when I was in college. There was, um. I had the opportunity to study abroad in spain. I went to Berkeley College of Music and you could study abroad in Valencia, spain.

Zak Kuhn: 46:08

And I had a bunch of friends who did it and I was like I worked my ass off to get to Berkeley. Why am I going to take a semester away from this campus? I'm here to learn guitar and music and I took music business classes and I'm not going to step guitar and music and I'm, and I took music business classes and like I'm not gonna step away and go to spain for a month or for a semester. And I think some people that's like that was why they went to college, because they wanted to get away and they wanted to experience the world and that was really important to them.

Zak Kuhn: 46:37

But for me, I don't even. I have no regrets about that, I don't even think about it like I, like I don't. I think I would have regret if I had gone to spain. Like to me, that's what I, that's, that was the thing. So I think it just depends what exactly. Like you said, if you have your north star, you know you're not going to regret not following it. But you know, for other people, that trip to spain might have been life-changing too, which is amazing.

Lachlan Stuart: 47:04

But I think you just have to know yourself and what you're trying to go after 100%, and that's the key there, and I think that's why it's impossible to be able to comment on what is right or wrong for an individual. But that's why I love even being able to unpack what's in your mind, and I'm glad we sort of dove into the sacrifices around things that are important, because sacrifices are part of that journey, and a lot of people may have seen you on the billboards and see what you're doing in the world and in your business and career now and they're like I want to do that. Therefore, I'm just going to do exactly what Zach's done I'm going to play shows with Shepard, I'm going to launch a magazine, I'm going to launch a podcast. But you've sacrificed a lot of stuff that you would have enjoyed, as you said a lot of social outings, probably family things. What are some of the key sacrifices that have stood out for you? And I know you said the social ones, but are there anything else that you've?

Zak Kuhn: 47:58

I think touring with Shepard has been a sacrifice in a good way, but I'll tell you why. I mean I spent a lot of time out with you guys this year, probably spent in total like a month of the road, because we did three weeks together. We did two weeks Maybe longer, maybe longer, and for my business, which is a really important thing for me, the touring with you guys didn't really have a direct correlation to national briefing. Now, you said this when, when I was interviewing you and if you saw me in the road are we good?

Zak Kuhn: 48:31

yeah, you're good. Oh you, you had said this when we were talking um, uh, that you know, if you saw me on the road with shepherd, you would see that on these long drives I'd be on my computer sending emails and working, we'd soundcheck and then I'd do more work and then we'd play the show, we'd pack up and if we were driving somewhere I'd usually be working on my computer in the van as we've been driving and I was always making phone calls and trying to get things done. And no doubt that touring with you guys had some even if it's small impact on my business of you know. I was able to maintain the level of it, but maybe it didn't excel or maybe there were other things that could have been working.

Zak Kuhn: 49:13

But for me, I love playing guitar and I love getting the opportunity to do that, and it was actually very energizing to go out on the road with you guys and even though it was exhausting, it was creatively a really fun outlet to be able to get up on stage and to play those songs and to be forced to play guitar, because oftentimes I'll go long stretches without really honing in on my guitar playing because I might not have a gig or I'm working on other things, and when you go out with a band like Shepard, you've got to be in really top shape.

Zak Kuhn: 49:50

So I was forced to carve out time to practice and to work on the material and just to be out every night playing with you guys. So that felt like a sacrifice right there, but it was worth it because it was energizing at the same time and also I think that sometimes when you step away from what you're doing and you go into a different outlet, it can bring different perspective or different ideas, kind of like you mentioned a second ago 100%, but that was equally as such.

Lachlan Stuart: 50:17

One of the inspiring things from my perspective is that tool was so grueling and one minute you're playing shows, we're loading in, we're loading out, we're trying to find food, but for me, to see the extra effort that you went in or put in sorry, to still be making the phone calls and doing what you need to do on your own business I was like that You're one of the only other people that I've met that does that, because that's similar to you.

Lachlan Stuart: 50:40

I'm up training and then I'm doing my work and then we're doing the gigs, and a lot of people don't necessarily understand that, and so for me it was like I found someone who has that same, I guess wants to continue to use shepherd as the example on the outside. It's like you want to play those and have those moments with them, which is what I do, as as the husband as well, but I also equally, as such, want to put a lot of energy and effort into what I'm achieving, which just means it's a big, bloody day and it's it's hard work, but it's so freaking sweet and that's I mean for me, with my experiences of touring as a musician that's always my experience.

Zak Kuhn: 51:23

I'm a side man, so I'm out helping other people's dreams come true. I'm contributing to someone else's vision and I've toured a lot as a side man. I toured with an artist that was on Warner called Temecula Road. I did probably 2 years with them, doing probably close to 80 dates a year. Same experience. I'd be in the van working, we'd do the gig, I'd get back to working.

Zak Kuhn: 51:49

When I think about touring, that just comes with it. I'm going to be working nonstop, but I feel like I am contributing to someone else's career. I'm also hopefully having fun while I'm on stage, but if I'm not pushing my career forward, then it feels like it was a waste of time. I have to be doing both in order to feel good about taking the time out to tour and to be on the road. Otherwise, I feel pretty guilty about it because I feel like I'm neglecting my business and my assets and my things, that I've done so. A lot of the times when you see me on tour and I'm working overtime, it's really not that I want to be doing it, I am just quite literally scared to not be doing it, and that, for me, can be a pretty big motivator.

Lachlan Stuart: 52:33

Dude, you've just unpacked my mind as well. 1000% it's supporting others, but I'm that side man in that position. But for me it's like I want to build something for myself, I want to pursue my potential, which means that's the hours that I have to do it. I have to get it done, regardless of if I'm tired or if I haven't eaten. It's just. That is my commitment to myself and that's what I think makes people rise above. The rest is because it's very easy to go. Oh, I only had four hours sleep last night, or one day off won't hurt. But when you as we've said countless times you found that North Star or that thing that keeps you awake at night because you're so excited about it, you'll find a way to make that happen.

Lachlan Stuart: 53:14

Another thing that I wanted to quickly dive into and I know we're nearly at the end here is your ability to network. So we can look at that from two lenses. The first one is internally. It takes a lot or I believe does because of self-doubt or we're worried about fear of judgment to continue to build your network. And when I say, get into the areas that you want to be and that are going to help propel your career forward or meet the people that you want to meet, that are going to help propel your career forward, or meet the people that you want to meet.

Lachlan Stuart: 53:44

That's challenging, right. So for me, that's a lot of internal thought that we have to overcome or doubt. The second side is how do we present ourselves to have enough value to be invited into those areas? So would we be able to start just quickly with you? You're one of the most known people in Nashville I've ever met. You walk down the street with you and everyone knows you. Okay, you're one of the most connected people and I would love to know how someone like yourself, who moved from New York to Nashville, has established such a great network in such a short period of time, and how have you allowed yourself to elevate with the level of influence that you've now got?

Zak Kuhn: 54:30

When I moved to Nashville I was unemployed. I knew a couple people and I bought a directory that had the emails of all of the power players in the music business in Nashville and I sat on my couch and I wrote cold emails to them that basically begging to get coffee, and maybe 1 out of 10. Let's say 2 out of 10 would respond to me. 1 out of 10 would agree to coffee. And that's how I started to get in the door, was just meeting people and sometimes those people would have a good meeting with me and they would respect my hustle and what I was doing and they would introduce me to other people. And that was the early stages of it.

Zak Kuhn: 55:07

The other thing I did literally when I was in Nashville was there's a great book by Keith Ferrazzi called Never Eat Alone, which I had read around that time and it was pretty impactful. But one of the things I would do when I moved to Nashville was literally commit myself to never eating alone and it didn't matter who it was. I would find a way to have breakfast, lunch and dinner with someone and that meant having breakfast, lunch and dinner with a lot of pretty weird people.

Zak Kuhn: 55:34

I'm just going to put it out there, because it was a challenge I held to myself, which is I just need to be with someone right now and I would go out every night and I would just meet people and say, hey, we should get coffee, we should get this, we should get whatever. So that was a big part of it, and I think the other thing too is you alluded to it which is the best thing for my network, because there's been a couple, couple phases of my networking. I would say Phase one was like hustle, hustle, hustle. Try to meet as many people as I can. Get coffee with everyone, get dinner with everyone, get lunch with everyone, show up at people's offices, and that maybe gets you in the door and gets you started. That's a good thing to do. If you have that kind of young energy. Then, as you start to build something, it's like the networking comes to me. People email me all the time asking to get coffee or wanting to get together or pitching me things. So it's like the most important thing really is making yourself appealing for other people and they're going to find you and reach out to you. And then networking becomes like Step one is like you're on this uphill, you're going uphill and now I'm going downhill, where not only are people reaching out to me, but if there is someone I want to reach out to, there's a level of credibility, whether it's a guest on the podcast. I can email someone I say I'd love to have you on the podcast. By the way, I've also had these five other people, so then that gives some motivation and some credibility for them to come onto the podcast. So it's all a process, but it's just. It's a lot of little things is, I think, what makes a great network. And the other thing too is you have to figure out what you want to do.

Zak Kuhn: 57:24

I'm very good at networking in the Nashville space and the music industry at large, but I'm horrible at networking in other industries. Maybe that's not giving myself enough credit, but I think the reason is that when I network in the music industry, people can sense because you can't really fake this they can sense that I'm all in and I hope people think, oh, it's a matter of when, not if, if this guy's gonna make it and I want to get on the train. And I think I'm able to convey a level of dedication that when I reach out to someone in, like you know, some other industry and I don't have the same success. I think I'm not conveying the level that I'm passionate about sports or whatever, whatever it may be. The other thing, too, about networking that I think is important to keep in mind is I remember locking in these massive early meetings when I moved to Nashville with the heads of labels and really big managers and publicists and all these people that I think said yes to me because I just told them I was a college kid who just graduated and moved to a new city and could I stop by and say hi for 15 minutes or 20 minutes. And I remember going into these meetings and thinking that this meeting with this person is going to change my life, because they're going to hire me or they're going to give me some opportunity or just knowing them is going to be life altering, life changing. And I would leave those meetings and I'd be like, holy shit, nothing happened. Now I know that person. That was a waste.

Zak Kuhn: 58:54

But then you go down this path and you start networking. You're meeting people, you're meeting people and all of a sudden you meet someone who says wait a second, you met with so-and-so. I've been dying to meet with so-and-so. Can you connect me? And you go. You know what you two should know each other. I can't believe you don't. And then you're able to connect those dots, and that doesn't change your life either. But all of a sudden it starts to build some equity and it starts to provide value to your network. And the best thing you can say about a network is the more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it. And the other thing I like about the other networking tip I like is from Dale Carnegie's how to Win Friends and Influence People, which is just greet everyone the way a dog greets their master. If you can greet everyone the way a dog greets you when you walk in the door, you're doing something right. That's excitement, energy. Maybe lick their face a little bit, okay, maybe don't do that.

Zak Kuhn: 59:58

Don't be a Doberman and slobber everywhere, don't do that, but that's always a good mentality to have as well.

Lachlan Stuart: 1:00:05

Make people feel warm and valued is the key. That book there that you recommended, dude, that was incredible insights. Even I remember when you were telling me that when we were driving to Malibu and I was just like this guy is a wizard, and I've got some similar comparisons with that, but, zach, I've really appreciated your time. Zach Kuhn, everybody. Zach, firstly, you are worthy, you were loved and you are inspiring, and I want to let you know that you aren't a sideman, you are the man and you're building something special, and I'm proud to have you as a mate and also someone that I look up to in the way that you conduct yourself and present yourself in business and in life, and I look forward to many more tours while we're in the States and watching your continued success. So, everybody, zach Kuhn, the host of the Zach Kuhn Show and founder of Nashville Briefing, tuning in from the man that Can Project. As always, do something today to be better for tomorrow.