Man That Can with Lachlan Stuart
Welcome to Man That Can with Lachlan Stuart—the podcast dedicated to empowering men to break through barriers and achieve their full potential.
Hosted by Lachlan Stuart, this show dives deep into the challenges men face, offering actionable insights, real-life stories, and expert advice. Whether you're focused on fitness, business, personal growth, or fatherhood, you'll find inspiration and tools here to help you rise above any challenge and become the man that can.
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Man That Can with Lachlan Stuart
Burnout Is NOT Normal: How Stress Wrecks Your Work & Relationship | WPWI Founders #637
Burnout recovery, workplace wellbeing, and relationship health all in one powerful episode.
Over 60% of Aussie workers report burnout the highest rate globally. But what if burnout wasn’t a badge of honour, but a red flag?
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🎧 WPWI Podcast: The Thriving Workplace Podcast
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Do Something Today To Be Better For Tomorrow
What would it look like if your workplace not only pushed you to succeed, but also protected your mental health in the process? Right now, 61% of Australian workers report experiencing burnout, which is the highest rate in the world, and in the US, nearly three out of five employees say burnout is affecting their job performance Somewhere along the way. Stress became normal, exhaustion became expected and well-being got pushed to the bottom of the priority list. But what if that could change? Today? I'm joined by Lauren and Jason, two leaders who've lived the cost of burnout and now flipping the script through their work with a thriving workplace and the workplace well-being. Lauren's story as a paramedic, jason's as a teacher show just how universal and urgent this issue is. So let me start here, guys, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Amazing Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Very excited to chat and to dive into this. It's such an important topic. The work that you guys are doing and how you're showing up, especially online, as I keep following along is always getting me to think, which is why I'm very, very pumped for this Quick question to both of you, and you can handball it around when did you first realize that burnout wasn't just part of the job but a sign that something had to change? Oh, what a great question.
Speaker 2:I think for me, if I was to go back to my teaching career, is I was sitting in a classroom one day and I remember it like it was just yesterday and I had three different colleagues of mine come into my classroom at three different times of the day and just burst out crying because they had enough of the stress, the workload, but really it was more of the culture. It was that silent culture where in education, where it's like you've got to do all this work, you've got to meet the parent expectations, you've got to meet the expectations of the school as well, and they were just over it. They were just I can't take this anymore. And to me that was the point where I drew the line in the sand, where I said, okay, we've got to do something about this. For sure, that was in a short term. That was definitely mine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess mine's kind of similar when I started out as a paramedic and I was really excited, obviously, to enter this new career and I got into that because I wanted to help people. But it didn't take me too long until I realized that for starters we weren't really helping people, we were just picking people up and taking them to hospital, but that was all we. You know we're picking up the same patients over and over again and it's okay, something's not right here because there's no solution, that we're not actually fixing anything and we're actually building on the problem because it's getting more medications and their health is declining. So I saw the sort of effects, I guess, of stress on communities. But then I also saw the effects of stress on my fellow colleagues as well, and paramedics and similar know people would. We were doing 14 hour shifts and it was just told just to keep going and just get on with it.
Speaker 3:Like being a paramedic is challenging and especially at that time. I mean I'm guessing it would still be very similar now. We're so short staffed and they were just putting pressure on us so you'd have a radio and they would just ping you like why are you still at hospital? Why are you doing this? Why are you not to the next page? Why is it taking you so long to do this? And they were just constantly on you and you'd go to the bathroom and you'd just be constantly tagged and it was just ongoing stress. You just didn't have a minute to take a breath.
Speaker 1:How did you manage that, lauren? Because, as you were saying that I'm getting anxious, as you're saying, I'm getting pinged here, I'm going to the bathroom, I'm getting pinged here, I'm going to the bathroom, I'm getting pinged For me. I'm just like far out. Can you talk me through what was going through your mind every time you get that buzz?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, because obviously the job's quite stressful and you're going to different scenarios and I was such a brand new paramedic. So I think naturally you put pressure on yourself because you want to perform and I'm a high performer and I know I get in my head at times that I want to perform at the best that I can and I want to show them, my colleagues, that I belong there and that I am a great paramedic, right? So I already had that pressure. So, going into scenarios, you know my brain's already switched on and it has to be anyway, because you're going into houses in different community settings that can be potentially quite dangerous.
Speaker 3:So as soon as you walk through the door your cortisol and adrenaline is through the roof and you're having to be on and focused the whole time and situations can change in seconds and you have to be ready with your equipment, with your drugs and medications and you have to know exactly how much you're administering. It's just so much that's going on and delegating tasks to other paramedics and listening to the leaders if there's some there, you know higher up paramedics and then I think when you drop the patient off and you just want to take a moment to decompress. It's hitting your adrenaline and everything again, because you're just not getting that moment to breathe. And it wasn't too far in. I thought I can't do this that long Like this is crazy. You know as much as we're putting our lives on the line and we're putting our health on the line, we're also not allowed from the system and the organization to actually take a minute to look after ourselves and look after each other. Yeah, it was like we're getting hit by both ends.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, as you're saying that I'm thinking about, how can I relate that to every even in my own life? And I'm just thinking of, like weight training, for example you're under pressure where you're hitting some reps, but you always take your rest period, and then that's during the shift, during the session, and then you take time off after, where you get to recover. And it doesn't sound like. From your experience in the workplace you didn't get that, and I know a lot of workplaces don't give people the moment to decompress, gather their thoughts and then come back in a, I guess, more recharged and re-energized position to do so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and recovery is so important. I think it's something that can be really overlooked and I love the analogy that you use Lucky in the terms of the gym, and I think people can relate to that and we talk on high-performing sports and endurance athletes and you look at people like LeBron James and recovery is so important for him. He prioritizes recovery above everything else. He probably has the least amount of time on the court actually practicing compared to other people in his field, but he performs at a higher standard and he's better than everyone else because he prioritizes recovery and spends so much time and money on actually making sure that his mind and body is fully recovered and ready to go again.
Speaker 1:That's such a good point and for me that raises like intensity versus maybe, consistency. I think when you're a bull out of a gate, especially starting in a new career and I noticed this a lot, especially in a lot of the men that I work with we want to prove ourself, and I think just people in general. You mentioned it, lauren you wanted to prove yourself to your colleagues, so you're prepared to go above and beyond and just the intensity in which you were working and what you were doing wasn't sustainable for the long run. Yet it's probably expected, as you sort of maybe started easing up, people are going hey, what are you doing? Like you aren't doing what you were doing, or are you okay because your work ethic's not as high? And it's like, yeah, I'm not okay, I'm freaking tired man, like I need a breather and it's just become expected.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Became the norm, I think, to just keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the thing. It's almost like that internal battle. It is expected, but at the same time, is it expected that you run yourself to the ground? And I think that's the line where you know it's starting to shift in workplaces now, but it's shifting so slowly, not at the rate that we need to, and yeah. So I think that's why you know one of the big reasons why we're here and making noise in this space to say, hey, we've got to make this line move quicker to ensure that we're looking after Australians and literally the entire world.
Speaker 3:Because the problem is when you suffer from something like burnout, it can take you so long to bounce back or to fully recover and it's something that can play on for years.
Speaker 3:Your immune system's taking such a hit, so you're so susceptible to getting health issues in that way. But then also chronic health issues, because stress chronic stress is putting pressure on your system as your body right, like your heart and your cardiovascular system, and I saw it in the community and you talk to people and you'd be like, wow, you know you're in your forties or fifties and you're on a medication list as long as your arm and you're thinking what is going on? And if you think about it, it's because of all the stress that they're under like financial stress, work stress, family stress and it just builds and all areas of their life is building this high level of stress and your body can't take that. That is not natural. And then they get put on medication and then they have to be put on another medication to counteract the side effects of that medication. Then it's just an ongoing effect and now they're on like 50 medications. It's insane.
Speaker 1:A walking pharmacy and I'd love to come back to talking about some strategies around that. But first, jason, I guess as well one thing that stood out for me about your story you were actually working with young children right, so you're influencing and shaping the direction of the next generation, which is such an important job and such a really. I think from my experience talking to teachers, it's not recognized enough just how important it is. You realized along the way that the leadership and how you were leading yourself wasn't going to be sustainable, and probably those young children are watching you go through burnout and the stresses. So for you. In that experience you said you had other colleagues walk in and break down in front of you, but was there a personal moment where you realized that something had to change for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. I think you know you touched on me teaching the next generation and I was teaching the real young ones. So I was teaching prep, year one, year two, which is that modeling phase. You know these children, when they're between zero and seven, they're like sponges. Whether we know it or not, they are absorbing absolutely everything the way that we show up, the way you know obviously, what we're teaching them, but the way we're interacting with other adults as well, they're absorbing all that information. So when you know we're at our wit's end, we're stressed, we're exhausted and the students and the next generation are seeing that. They're thinking, oh, that's the normal way, that's how we interact with other people. And I saw it when I was, you know, as a teacher, particularly when it was coming to that end of term, when we've got to get all the assessments done, the report cards need to be written and obviously the teacher stress levels are rising as well. The stress levels in the classrooms were also rising from the students and they didn't know why. They were just following along. They thought it was normal.
Speaker 2:That, to me, was probably the big eye opener. I was like, okay, you know, that's when we're sort of it's a snowball effect. You know I'm showing up as this stressed human being, but now I'm infecting almost 30 young individuals in front of me with this stress. And to me that was, I thought, a moment where I went okay, I've got to take a step back. But then at the same time, I saw my colleagues burning out. But I would come home and see Lauren, who was burning out from a paramedic as well. She would come home from a shift absolutely exhausted. Fair enough, it may have been a 12-hour shift, but then she had a couple of days off and she wasn't recovering. So it was that point where I saw okay, my colleagues are going through this, lauren's going through this as well. Something's got to shift, because it's not just in education, it's not just in the healthcare profession. It was.
Speaker 2:Then, you know, you'd start talking to friends who are in completely other industries and they're going through something similar, or they've got colleagues going through something similar. I thought, okay, this is almost like a silent pandemic, almost there's things happening and it's like what is Australia doing about this? And I thought that's where it wasn't such a personal for me, but it was more of a okay, I'm seeing everyone else going through this. I don't want to go through this. There know, there's that great quote where you become the sixth person of the five people you hang around the most with. I don't want to be that you know stressed out, burnt out person. You know I love being that happy, positive, vibe as much as I can, and if I'm stressed, burnt out, exhausted, depressed, I'm not going to be able to do that. So that was sort of that line in the sand. It wasn't such a personal story for me, but it was more of the impact that I'm seeing with other people around me.
Speaker 1:It shows that you care, like to me. It shows how much compassion and empathy you have for people, and the desire to sorry the fact that you uprooted a career that you'd studied for and were obviously passionate about to solve a bigger issue takes a special kind of person. So for you to be able to do that's really impressive. To then obviously that quote you just used you're the sixth person of the five that you spend the most time around. The beautiful thing about you stepping up and, I guess, putting your hand up.
Speaker 1:You were then able to influence the five other people that you're surrounding yourself around because you took, I guess, responsibility or self-leadership to direct the quality of your life and the quality of life of other people. So just them seeing what you're talking about, them watching how you're conducting yourself, that maybe you know doing things differently in the relationships. It's like they're going to start modeling your behavior as well. I know it's not like when we're super young and we're like sponges, but we still do pick up those things because I can imagine there are friends and colleagues in your life for both of you who may not say things to you, but they watch and they're constantly taking away these things on how they can improve their relationship, whether it's because of stress management and all of those things. So I'd love to ask obviously you're both in the space, you're a couple, so how did you I guess, as you're starting to think about this consciously what were some things that you did to make sure it improved your relationship and you weren't bringing that work stress home?
Speaker 3:So is this before WPWI, when we were going through the burnout phase? Is that what you mean?
Speaker 1:Let's do a before and after. I think that'd be cool to see the contrast.
Speaker 3:Before and after. Yeah, okay, If we can yeah? I'm thinking if.
Speaker 2:I went back to before, I probably, to be honest, had not much of an idea of why you know why we were so head-butting each other. And it wasn't until I started to really dive into some study around this where I realized, oh okay, this is why. But before it was definitely head-butting, I was taking work home and doing it from home. Lauren was coming home exhausted and I was like, well, what is this? And we ended up almost living like two roommates and then it was in some points it was like ships in the night. We wouldn't see each other for a couple of days because of Lauren's shifts and things. So yeah, beforehand it was a lot of head-butting, not realizing why we're like this. You know, where did that spark sort of go? That relationship sort of died off.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you want to add anything to that, I think it's hard when you've got nothing left in the tank to be able to give to other people as well. Like if you can't give for yourself and have that energy there, then you've got no energy for anyone around you. And I think in a relationship dynamic because you feel fairly safe to be open and quite raw and honest with your emotions it can seem like quite intense. And I know that I personally can be quite intense with my emotions in terms of like I can flick from one emotion to the other. But then back then I think I had no level of awareness about emotional regulation or nervous system regulation at all. So I've just come home and kind of Jason would be my outlet, which I know isn't fair, but I think it's easier. Hey, when you've only got that one person when you come home and you've bottled it up all day because you've been told to just keep going and you've not had a moment to decompress that you're my decon.
Speaker 3:But it ends up being quite intense and I think after a while that can wear thin on the relationship, because you're not meant to be my counselor as much as you're meant to be someone I can lean on, but you're not meant to be the only person that holds everything.
Speaker 3:And also back then, gosh, we were so young and I think we'd not really stepped into personal development or done any of this kind of work, so our level of awareness about anything was so low and we weren't really on this health conscious journey either as much as we were interested. But I was heavily in the Western medicine world back then so I was kind of it was actually really strange, being honest, I felt like I was split into two, that I had this sort of holistic, spiritual part of me that I had to shut down to then be a paramedic in the Western world. That's how I felt, and I kind of kept some of that secret that I like to dive into some of those sorts of things. But I thought that doesn't quite align with who my identity is at the time and so it was very much Western medicine.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, we didn't have the awareness that we do now and we didn't have the knowledge and the skills. Like, I remember going to a personal development and meeting this guy and he started talking about masculine and feminine energy and I was like what on earth are you talking about? But then once I actually got to know him yeah, once I actually got to know him and he explained it a little bit more I went okay, I totally get it. I can see why we're headbutting here, because it was that the polarity was completely off and we won't go into masculine and feminine energy now, but it was. That was a big turning point for me to be able to go okay, I actually need to step into the man who I need to be, to show up for myself, but then show up for Lauren. And now the business as well.
Speaker 3:But then I was in my masculine a lot too, because I wanted to take control of something that I was so out of control and I didn't have the space or time to actually decompress and be able to be in my feminine and feel safe, like my nervous system didn't feel safe at all. So how can I be in my feminine, and that just affects the relationship a lot.
Speaker 1:So powerful those things, and for those listening along who are, I guess, wanting to dive deeper, a really good book that's helped me and a lot of people that I'm friends with is the Way of the Superior man. That really breaks that down. I felt like that gave me a roadmap into Amy's mind and I was like, wow, this is incredible and also helped me understand myself a lot, so really recommend that book there as well.
Speaker 1:What about now? So obviously, fast track. You've done a bit of the personal development. You've got, I guess, stress levels under control and I know, once again, there's always seasons where the stress will come back in. But what do you do differently within the relationship to help it thrive?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it was important for us to okay. So we had that moment where we were both suffering. And then I to provide a bit more context, I guess, to you, lockie, and the listeners I then had no menstrual cycles for eight months and I was suffering from migraines, mood swings, borderline depression, and it was a really dark time for me. And I remember getting blood tests and brain scans and all sorts of things done, because my doctor had no idea what was going on because, you know, a few months before I had blood tests and everything was fine. All of a sudden, I had no estrogen, no progesterone. It was unreadable. Yeah, she said my hormones were worse than a 70-year-old. That's literally.
Speaker 3:I remember her saying that and I remember coming out of that Doctors, it was insane and I started crying. I was like, wow, I'm 23 and I've never been so scared that I'm out of control with my health, because I believe if you don't have your health, you have nothing. And I was really quite worried. I was I have no idea what's going on my doctor's confused and I was talking to my brother at the time because he's in Holistic Health, he's a Czech Institute trained practitioner Amazing, yeah. And he was like, wow, okay, loz, like if you don't do something about this, it's scary, because where can this spiral to? And I just remember him saying that and looking at me going I'm worried about you and I feel like you need to make a change, because where is this going to go? And I thought, wow, okay, if this gets worse, that's really scary, because I'm already pretty bad. So it was at that moment where I thought, okay, I need to make a change because I'm, yeah, really worried where this can go and I don't want to go through extra health issues that I'm, yeah, really worried where this can go and I don't want to, you know, go through extra health issues that I'm already going through now.
Speaker 3:So I turned to yoga and meditation and started diving into sort of holistic health. And it was that point where, like you said, jase, you know, when you start to see things, you can't unsee it. So once I started to see the system and the sort of brokenness and the suffering and the pain that was happening within communities and also within my colleagues, I thought I need to, yeah, step away, make a change. So I became a yoga teacher and that's actually how I started, so I didn't actually jump straight into wpwi. I think there's a bit of a gap there. But I just worked on myself for ages. You know worked. We went into personal development.
Speaker 3:We did heaps of events like full personal development junkie for like 12 to 18 months just sort of ripping ourselves apart, but in a beautiful way, and you stepping away from teaching me, stepping away from my career and going. Let's just break away the layers, let's start from the foundations and build ourselves back up, because we don't actually like who we've become, we don't actually like how we show up every day, we don't like our habits. Something's wrong here from deep within, and I believe that a lot of the burnout and the stress, as much as it's an environmental thing and an external thing, it's very much an internal thing. It's like what is the mindset around this that is creating the stress? The lack of boundaries, the lack of the thoughts of of, yes, I've got to show up perfect and I've got to get everything perfect, and that's putting pressure on you. There's so much around what creates stress and burnout. So I think going into that personal development, ripping ourselves apart, has now helped us.
Speaker 3:now to build the level of awareness, because without awareness you can't create change and we're so much more aware now of our nervous systems and our mindset and everything along with that, whereas before we had no awareness. And I think now we've got our own practices and we keep ourselves as healthy as possible and we've got health coaches and we've got mentors in our space around different things, whereas we never had any mentors before. So I think that's helped us too. And we worked with that guy you spoke about right, his name's todd.
Speaker 3:He's actually speaking at the conference and we worked with him for 12 months on just us as a couple, as a relationship, not business, not anything else, because we're so good at that, especially now it's like let's hire a business mentor and we've got all this business strategy and it's like, okay, but if, especially as we're in business together, if we don't work on our relationship, the business will fail and as much as we thrive as a couple, our business will thrive even more. It goes hand in hand. So we worked with him for 12 months on, yeah, masculine, feminine energy, but also limiting beliefs, mindset, nervous system regulation and all these different things. I think that's helped us now because you can show up different and better and understand me and I can understand you and our communication is so much better. Even you know we have moments, of course, but then we go. Okay, we know what to do now, like, and then we sort of laugh about it.
Speaker 3:It's different.
Speaker 2:I think yeah, to summarize what Lauren was saying. Then, to come back to your question, you know what do we do as a couple to ensure that we're thriving. I think, first of all, it was the awareness. You know we're now aware of where each other's triggers are and where our emotions are, like both of us. So I'm aware of my emotions, but I'm also aware of Lauren's emotions and we know what to do in those sorts of times. So if I can see that Lauren's going into a stress state, it's like, okay, I need to pull back here a little bit and I need to go to Lauren and go okay, what can I do to support you through this? And it's just those little question techniques.
Speaker 2:It was definitely find a mentor to help with our relationship that was another big one but also just little things that we've implemented. So, instead of you know, we're obviously we're working on the business, but then there's times it's okay, we're now switching into relationship mode. So, for example, every Wednesday night now we don't work on business, we don't open the computer. It's time where we can connect and it might be playing a board game, it might be doing a puzzle. It's something completely random that we don't normally do. But it's that time to connect and time to talk about us and our dreams as a couple, rather than the business and what we do. So that's probably the three or four main things.
Speaker 1:I love that. That was so cool. I would imagine, when you're breaking yourselves down to build yourselves or rebuild yourself. It wasn't as easy as what you said. There would have been obviously more head-butting and some really confronting moments, but you guys continued to work through that and were committed to that and I think a lot of people avoid that. I know I avoided it for years because I didn't want to have to accept certain things about myself and how I was showing up. I just wanted to put my head in the sand so I'd turn to alcohol.
Speaker 1:I love that you guys did that together. I think that's so powerful because a lot of couples grow apart. You guys grew together and you're only going to be better for that because of that experience, that's for sure. Why do you think burnout is? You know you guys are obviously hosting events and we'll talk about the big event coming up and you're speaking to a lot of people in business. But why do you feel burnout and I guess stress across the workplace is becoming such a big problem in so many industries? I think because as human beings.
Speaker 2:Now, with so much technology and so much noise around, we struggle to switch off. You can pick up your phone and you can have a look at your emails. You can have a look at your text messages. You can get online on social media and see what everyone else is doing as a you know, a human society. I feel like that's one of the biggest things, and I'm saying this because you know I still do struggle with, you know, notifications on my phone. It's like oh, there's another, another ding. I wonder what that is attention, and there's a study that's been done where it's, and there's a study that's been done where it's. You know, if you're on a task and then you get distracted, it takes 20 or so minutes to get back to that one task. It's just yeah it's 23 minutes.
Speaker 3:I think yeah, it's crazy, crazy.
Speaker 2:So to me, I feel like that's probably one of the biggest things. You know, we get drawn at all hours of the night, you know, if we're sending emails at a ridiculous time, whoever is going to get that email is going to get distracted and go. Oh okay, I should maybe respond to this. Or, if they don't respond, they're thinking about it unconsciously. They're going to sleep thinking about that email that they've just read and then when they get up, they go why am I so exhausted? You know and they probably don't even realize that they've been ruminating about that email or about that notification, whatever it might be, for a little while. So for me, that's probably one of the biggest things.
Speaker 3:It's a really interesting question because I feel like there's a lot to it and, at the same time, I think it depends on who you speak to. I think some people would go, you know, oh, we're stressed as a society because we just keep going and there's so much to do and the workload's really high and all of this sort of stuff, you know. But I believe it's a combination of things. I think there's a lot of stuff around the mindset and around limiting beliefs, like I touched on before, that really creates this level of stress.
Speaker 3:Like why are you not creating boundaries, which is touching on what Jason's saying because, as much as it's, it's both right.
Speaker 3:The organization needs to have proper policies and protocols around protecting their staff a hundred percent, but at the same time, the individual also needs to set boundaries, also needs to be able to have a voice, and, as much as that's challenging, I think it's a lot of internal work that needs to happen for you to be able to feel that you can speak up and that you have these difficult conversations, that you know what you conversations, that you know what you value and you know what you stand for and you stick to that rather than be a pushover.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of people pleasing happening in the workplace. I think jason saw it a lot, especially as teachers, as if people pleases as a whole. If I'm honest like I'm just going to be complete, rip the band-aid off, it's true, and I think we have these really cool conversations when we're doing our networking events and it's amazing what you hear, and because we've been doing the work for a little while now I'm not saying we're perfect, nowhere near, but we've got a lot of awareness you start hearing what comes out of people's mouths and you go people pleasing okay, interesting like why are you doing that?
Speaker 3:okay, that's not your, that's not your workplace problem, that's a you problem and it's really interesting. I think people can put a lot of blame on the organizations. I'm saying that there's definitely work there, but there's also a lot of work that needs to happen in the rewiring of people's brains because of the way we've been brought up. From other generations that people were brought up to just go to work, put your head down, get on with it, not say anything, and maybe that was okay back then. But the different generations went through different things. We're talking post-war and all of the things that they had to do to survive and get through it. Now it's different, but unfortunately, you know, it's been passed on to generations to just be a doormat and to be okay with certain things and to be on all the time. And it's okay to do overtime and have your phone switched on. All these things. It's not.
Speaker 3:I think that puts a lot of stress on people. But then also, like you touched on lucky, a lot of people turn to coping mechanisms. They don't want to face how they feel. They don't want to face their emotions. They want to bury it in scrolling on their phone, on drinking alcohol, on partying, on hanging out with the wrong people, on watching the news, which is just filling our brains with even more global stress now, which is not normal. We shouldn't know what's happening on the other side of the world. You know, many years ago we wouldn't actually know and that's putting a lot of stress. You know, we went through massive global stress only a few years ago, if you think about it, and that's still having an effect on people's nervous systems.
Speaker 3:So I think there's a lot of work that people need to do within themselves, but also in organisation. Work that people need to do within themselves, but also an organization looking after your health. I mean in general, like if your internal world in terms of health, in terms of sleep, food, nutrition, movement, mindset, nervous system is good, you can increase your stress threshold. So it takes a lot longer for you to be able to you know and get to, for you to be able to knock over the other side. I'm not coping anymore. It takes you so much more you can have more get to for you to be able to knock over the other side and go. I'm not coping anymore. It takes you so much more you can have more capacity to do more, hold more responsibility, lead bigger teams, without getting to that point of burnout. If your internal world, if you're already on shaky ground, you can't really do much with that. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like building a house, like you're not going to go and build a house on sand, you know. I mean, yeah, it's like building a house, like you're not going to go and build a house on sand where the water is going to come up to it. You're going to build that house on a solid foundation. And I think that's at WPWI. We work with the business, but then we also work with the individual as well to ensure that they are setting themselves up on that solid ground. We implement a wellbeing strategy alongside their or inside almost their business strategy, but then we're also working with the individuals at the same time, because we believe that empowered people create empowered organizations. So if we can empower this person, that they're going to show up better, they're going to do better work, they're going to be more productive, they're going to show higher performance, they're going to want to stay at this workplace because they're empowered and they are empowered.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think putting your health first, talking about healthy habits and all these sorts of things are normal in the workplace, instead of talking about how busy you are, how much work you've got to do, how stressed you are, how you've got to take this work home, how it's affecting your family time and all these sorts of things that becomes the norm in an environment. Of course, that's a stressed out workplace. Instead of going, hey, I actually had time off and I turned my notifications off and I felt amazing and I did this breathwork session or I did a sauna session, or I'm now starting up running, like there's just a completely different dynamic.
Speaker 2:And it's just, you know, lucky. I know that your audience is a lot of you know, men and potentially even business owners in the room. When we take a break from our own business, we switch off all of our notifications and we're just connecting with ourselves, connecting with each other, connecting with the environment around us. We make more money. The business always thrives better when we take that step back. So imagine if your employees, if there's any CEOs listening take that step back. What's going to happen to your business? All I can see is projecting upwards.
Speaker 1:That's the mic drop right there.
Speaker 1:So, firstly, you guys explained that so well. Obviously you've got the personal or the person involved, but then the workplace, and I think it's important to empower both, but then also bring the synergies together, which is what you guys do with the work that you do to create that thriving workplace. And obviously, if it's not happening, there will be individuals out there who are suffering with their mental health and their lifestyle might be falling apart because of work, stress, financial stress, all the stresses that you mentioned earlier and same with the business. If you don't have great culture and a resilient team and everything for them to thrive, it's like your profits aren't going to be as good. And I did have the stat but I can't find it now of how much Australian businesses are losing every year because of workplace burnout. It's crazy. So it makes sense to slow down, in my opinion, work with someone like you guys and get the strategies in place to uplift not only your team and your people, but your business and organization as a whole.
Speaker 1:There was one question that came up for me when you guys were talking there, and it was when you were mentioning like you turn your phone off, your notifications off, and you take time and your business grows. One thing I personally struggle with is taking that time away through my mind. I'm like, oh, what if I lose momentum, or what if I become irrelevant, or what if I miss something? And that is one of the, I guess, the thought processes that goes through my mind and I then just convince myself to keep working, and it happens more often than not and it's something that I'd love to be able to stop doing. Is there anything that you guys have found that can help with that? A way Can I go?
Speaker 3:on that. I got a question first.
Speaker 2:Okay, what if we were just to reframe that question? You just said what if I start? What if I lose momentum? What if we were to flip that around and you change it to what if I could gain momentum by taking a couple of days off? Now, you know, if I just paused, take a breath and go okay, let's go again I could almost guarantee and I am going to guarantee it you're going to have more energy and more momentum afterwards. You know, if you close that you know, say you know, by the end of this week I'm going to get all my work done, I'm going to get all the tasks done, because once that's done, I've got a couple of days off where we're going to go away for a couple of days. Then when you come back the following week, you'll be more motivated to keep going. You will get better downloads. You will get you know better ideas.
Speaker 3:Look, he's looking so resistant right now. He's kind of ventilating.
Speaker 1:I'm just like how easy you changed it with the reframe in my mind. I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. It's like just be optimistic and test it, because we're always testing stuff right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that's going to be. You know, I'm always when I hear someone say it, I will always reframe something and you know, just like you just did, it's like, oh shit, maybe, maybe, but it also calls me on my bullshit.
Speaker 1:That's what I didn't like. I think when Lauren, you think when Lauren, you're like I feel, look resistant, it's like yeah, well, you, just you took away that excuse that.
Speaker 3:I had to keep working. Well, I think it's an old school mentality that's been passed down like. Once again, I keep saying that. But and it's just interesting on because it's something that I have on and off battled with too lucky so I totally get where you're coming from and I think it's that high performing mindset. But it's also old-school mindset of one hour equals one hour of productivity and that's a load of BS because you keep going right. It's like a car and you keep driving.
Speaker 3:One day that car is going to break down. It's going to take you so much longer to repair to then be able to get back on the track and on the road and keep going again. If you keep going in your business, you're going to burn out one day. Then you're going to lose momentum for three months or more. Lockie, that's the problem. So if you have micro breaks in times of recovery, you'll prevent that from happening. So that's one Also, too, with the mindset. I find that when we think, what if I lose momentum? What if I lose an opportunity? What if I miss out on something? That's scarcity. That's a scarcity mindset. That's the belief that if I take 10 minutes away, there's opportunities coming that I'm missing and I've actually really worked on this recently and I think with the business mentor that we have now. She really teaches that the right opportunities come at the right time and I do believe that I feel like you speak to the right person at the right time and it all starts to align.
Speaker 3:If that opportunity is not right for you because your nervous system can't take it maybe your life's so busy right now you can only handle so much. You've got a plate. You can only fill it with so much food, right, and if you start to overfill it, then you're going to spill out. It's going to affect your relationships, your business, your money, your income, your business, your money, your income and all these other things. So just accept that that opportunity is perfect, but I don't want any more. And it's like us with business right now it's like, okay, we're busy planning the big event, We've got these other smaller events, we've got a few other things happening. That's really my plate almost full, like there's only a little bit more that we can have right now. We've got some speaking engagements. You're emceeing a lot at the moment. That's it and we're happy with that. And I think it's not having that scarcity mindset of like I'm gonna miss out and and you know there's already enough for enough people the right opportunity will come at the right time.
Speaker 3:Your mind, your nervous system, reflects on the opportunities that come in. If you're in a scarcity nervous system, if your nervous system shaky, you won't attract the opportunities in the first place. You need to breathe, you need to rest. Then you can expand. I think that's where some of the success that we're having recently is because we have been able to decompress our nervous system, regulate so, because you're going a bit woo, woo, but your nervous system, you know, your frequency goes up when you rest and you're in um of a love, joy, fulfillment, mindset and feeling, rather than scarcity. I need, I need, I need, I need, I need, I need, I need. It's like okay, that's a low vibration, that is dense frequency, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I suppose you know we talk about seasons a lot and even in the you know the business world, they talk oh yeah, I'm in a sprint season. At the moment I'm sprinting. My question to anyone who is in a season of sprinting is okay, when does that season come to an end? You know we don't have summer all year round, we don't have winter all year round, for a reason. You know you cannot be sprinting for 365 days of the year. But if you're going into a sprint season, my biggest advice is okay, when does this sprint season end? You know, right now I feel like we're just about to start a new sprint where we're going into. We've had a couple of days where it's okay, where you know we've gone back to a fast walk, maybe a jog, and now we're ready to pick it up again. You know, ready to pick up the sprint, ready for the next season. But is this season going to last for the rest of the year? No, it's not.
Speaker 3:It might last for 30 days, it might last for 60 days max, and then we'll taper back down, back to a jog, back to a fast walk, whatever that is, and I'm not overly big on sprints, like I used to be, but I think I'm more about sustainable growth and I think keep running and stopping running and stopping it's not sustainable.
Speaker 3:I'd rather enjoy the journey rather than just keep going and pushing. If it was like pushing a boulder uphill, I'd rather just really enjoy it. Attract what we're meant to attract, keep consistent and showing up, but that's different to like rushing and sprinting all the time. I feel like sustainable growth and I think that's what's helped us in the two years of business and why we're seeing the growth and momentum now is because of the consistency and we didn't burn ourselves out and we had to stop and I think people go in this cycle of like push, push, push, burnout, stop yeah oh my gosh, I need to recover, I need to take two weeks off, I need to go on holiday, I need a break you know what I mean, but it's all about becoming aware.
Speaker 2:You know, if you are in that sprint season, okay, now it's that time to slow down. It's not stopping. We're still walking, essentially we're still going at a jog speed, but it's slowing down because that is not sustainable. Like you said, that sprint.
Speaker 1:Within that awareness you built, how did you, I guess, gain an understanding of how big your plate is? Because I could imagine there's some blokes or people listening to this and they're like my plate's never ending. I can deal with it, even though, because their stress threshold maybe they've been running at that burnout point for decades because they've never learned about rest and recovery. So that's just them. How would you know, when you're sort of getting to that point of burnout, if someone's on the edge of it? Now, what would be, I guess, a way to identify that and some steps to recovery, so to speak?
Speaker 3:I think, looking like. We spoke about looking at your habits. So you know how do you act when the doors are closed. Are you scrolling on your phone? Are you drinking alcohol? What are you talking about? What are you listening to? Because that sort of reflects on what's happening in your nervous system and internal world. What are you trying to avoid? Are you suppressing something?
Speaker 3:Because, yeah, when you are go, go, go and you think that I thought this only a couple of years ago I'm so capable, I can handle anything, and it's like, oh, actually I feel quite, you know, and then it catches up with you and only about eight months ago I was suffering from panic attacks and anxiety again and I was like, whoa, where did this come from? It just hit me like a bus, it was so random and I thought, well, that's really interesting and it's because I thought I can just keep going, I can handle this, my plate's huge. And then it will hit you all of a sudden with something. And I think the signs are that you don't switch off very easily. You don't take moments to regulate your emotions or even tap into how they feel. You're always scrolling on your phone, you're addicted to noise, you're watching TV. You don't like being in silence. Maybe you're getting a lot of headaches, mood swings, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:For me, it's the sleep. I'll know when I'm going. Okay, my plate's too full now because my sleep will start to go off. It'll take forever to fall asleep. I'll wake up at weird hours of the night. Where it's not, I don't need to go to the bathroom or anything, I just wake up and I'm thinking. Or I'll wake up and I'm straight away, I'm on and I'm thinking about you know, I've got to do this, this, this, this, this.
Speaker 2:You know, my to-do list is so big that for me, is a big sign that, okay, there's got to get rid of something. So I let go of something that I've been doing for 11 plus years, and three days later I'm thinking, three days post, that it's like, actually, I feel lighter already. And it was just that one thing that's always in the back of the mind. It was literally one. I would do this thing one hour a week as supporting a local radio station on the Gold Coast, and as I get rid of that, my head is so much more clear. Now, already it's just that one hour, but I know, okay, I've got to do that, I've got to do that, I've got to do that, I've got to do that. Now it's gone, it's like, oh, that's easier.
Speaker 1:So it's just removing that one little. I shut down my online academy. It was something similar to you that I've done for seven years now, but I was starting to get really resentful for having to do it. It wasn't serving a purpose in my life anymore and once again I was sort of one foot in, one foot out and wasn't showing up and I'd resisted shutting it down for four months, five months, and then it just got to the point where I was like what am I doing? Like this is I guess we speak about energy and vibration Like I was just becoming so bitter and so had such a low vibration around it that it wasn't valuable to anyone. And then I was able to shut it down and literally the moment that I did the final call, I was just like free, like I'd taken this 10-kilo weight vest off and I could now run in peace. What do you feel are some of the biggest blind spots that leaders have when it comes to workplace well-being?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what Lauren was saying before it was the one hour of work is one hour of productivity. These days it's not. You know, COVID showed us that big time Working from home is. You can get a lot more done, but there's also a lot more distractions. Yes, I understand that. Different distractions, Different distractions. But if I went into an office and that you told me to sit at my desk for nine hours or eight hours, whatever it is, and work, I'm going to be not productive at all Because I'm going to go. Oh well, I got eight hours here. My to-do list is a long, you know. Cool, I'm going to scroll, I'm going to scroll on Facebook for a little bit on my computer, so it looks like I'm working or it's. You know, I'm going to go online shopping, whatever it is, because I know I can get all this done within this eight hours. But if you tell me, okay, you've got this list to do in four hours, Okay I'm on because I know after that four hours I'm free, I can do what I like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's the biggest shift at the moment that we're we're seeing going through as well. Yeah, I think the organizations that are thriving, uh, recognizing that and you know, switching to things like, um, you know, four day work week or something you know, switching to things like you know a four-day work week or something you know. We've spoken to organizations recently that are doing that and some are in fear of that. They're like how can you still produce the right amount of money, how can you maintain your client base, and all those sorts of questions. But then the other organizations that have implemented it, they're like it works so well because we've cut the bullshit.
Speaker 3:People are not getting up to waste time chatting to their colleagues over coffee. They're not wasting time walking to the bathroom every two seconds because they're bored. They're not scrolling or wasting time on their computer. They're cracking on and getting on with it because they want that extra day off and they're seeing that the productivity has actually gone up and the recovery is longer. So then of course, they come back on a Monday feeling more refreshed. So recovery is longer. So then of course, they come back on a Monday feeling more refreshed. So these having that mindset, like you said, of switching, the one hour equals one hour of productive work because it's not.
Speaker 3:And, like you said, you know it takes 23 minutes to come back on track when you're distracted and offices create a lot of distraction. I actually hear people work better when they're at home, sometimes because they're not getting all the noise from the office. You know the tables next to them, they're on phone calls or whatever and, yeah, a lot of distractions in the office.
Speaker 2:I think another thing that leaders have maybe dropped the ball on and in fact I'm not saying maybe, I think they have, I'm going to throw it out there they have is mini micro behaviors, and what I mean by that is tonality. You know how are they speaking to their staff. You know, are they coming at a calm, positive vibe, or are they yelling at them, saying, you know, we've got to get this done, We've got to get this done? And that could come back to that scarcity mindset, Little things like. Are they praising their employees, Whether it's just through an email, saying hey, great job this week, Whether it's in a staff meeting, whether it's, you know, employee of the month are very tokenistic, I find, but for some that's what works.
Speaker 2:And even right down to you could even go right down to response times and emails. If someone sends, you know, an email, is the boss sending that off instantly like a reactive, or is it the opposite of that? Are they taking way too long to respond to a request? So there's that happy medium as well when it comes to emails, but it's those mini micro behaviors I feel like leaders have dropped for sure, causing that blind spot.
Speaker 3:I'd like to add one more. I know we could do heaps of these, but I think leaders and organizations in general really think that the culture will look after itself, or everyone's happy here, making assumptions, not actually knowing how their workers are feeling, what's working, what's not working, what needs to be done. Not asking those big questions and just assuming that everything's fine, not measuring anything, like I said, not having those chats and just assuming everyone's happy here. So the culture is fine, the culture just happens on its own and it's all good not actually doing anything about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah or it's. You know, if there's silence on, no one said anything, so everything must be good. You know, no news is good news, as they say. But even like, if you've sent out an engagement survey to employees, for example, and you get 60% back, you might be thinking, oh fantastic, 60% have responded, everything's great. What's happening to that other 40%? You've got 40% of your staff who have decided not to respond to that survey. That could be 40% of your staff who are ready to get up and leave because they've just had enough. So again, it's flipping it and reframing little things, or they?
Speaker 3:don't trust that the organization is actually going to do anything with the answers anyway.
Speaker 3:That's what happens. A lot of time we hear they go well, what's the point of me filling out this survey or answering their questions? Because it's just a token and tick box approach. They won't do anything with it, nothing ever changes, so why would I waste my time and actually speak up about it? So that's also where they're missing the spot, because we do, you know, audits and get into the workplace and find the gaps where they are with productivity and wellbeing. But we say to them you have to explain to your staff why you're doing it, the importance, have a proper discussion before actually implementing it, and then at the end you have to stick to your word. You have to do something about the feedback and tell your workers what you're planning to do and take them on the journey with you instead of just doing it, ticking the box, moving on, not doing anything, because it's not changing anything, and then you're losing the trust. It's actually detrimental to the workplace.
Speaker 1:It's wild and there's some great points there. I actually was looking at like case studies of big businesses especially that were implementing things and, as you mentioned, there were four like companies that had introduced four-day work weeks. I know from speaking to some of my mates who have businesses with a lot of employees that they're a bit resistant because you know whether it's you know they're like traditionally working seven days a week.
Speaker 1:It's like how does that work? And for me it's like, well, introduce maybe a staff roster or look at certain things like that. But even another one was Lendlease I was reading about. They had introduced quarterly well-being days and as a result, they had a heap of data which saw increased engagement and performance. And it makes me think, like why aren't more leaders and businesses at least testing it, giving themselves a 90-day or 180-day test of it? Because, as you've said a number of times, jason, it's like reframing it. Yeah, that style of thing that you're testing may not work, but what if it does? And what if your business does become more productive?
Speaker 1:And Brene Brown has a great quote that I think is directed at the leaders there. It's like we can choose courage or we can choose comfort, but we can't have both, and when you're looking to implement change and implement growth, there is an element of risk and that means you need to step into that comfort there. But I'd love to talk about the event that you guys have coming up in September. I've got so much value, like I'm amped up from the conversation that we've had, and I know this is just sort of scratching the surface of what people can learn at the event. Can you give us a rundown of what's going to happen?
Speaker 3:I'm so excited for this event. What?
Speaker 1:can we say, without giving too much away, yeah, without giving too much away.
Speaker 3:Obviously, Lockie Stewart is one of our amazing keynote speakers at the conference and I'm really excited and pumped to have you there, Lockie.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It was interesting when we interviewed you last year on our podcast, as soon as we came off I was like he's there, he's going to be one of the keynote speakers, 100%, because you give so much value and I think you have so much wisdom and experience working with men, but also working with different people on resilience mindset and building people up to reach their potential.
Speaker 2:Leadership as well.
Speaker 3:I'm really excited for you to obviously dive into that. But we've got other people coming talking about emotional intelligence and how you can increase your emotional capacity to be able to hold bigger teams, hold yourself, attract more wealth and more abundance and all those sorts of things that that person will go through and actually announce that person yet look by the time this podcast comes out it's being announced tomorrow that's true, yeah, so it'll be there I'm really sure when we were announcing her jessica cameron, so she'll be speaking on that.
Speaker 3:She's been on our potty as well. She's really awesome. She's worked with so many leadership teams and corporates around australia on building emotional capacity and that's such a new way of thinking and it works. So that's exciting to bring that in. But you can continue.
Speaker 2:I think what makes you know, because leaders might see this as another conference you know.
Speaker 2:I've attended conferences all year. I walk away with some knowledge, but yeah, okay, this isn't just you come and a death by PowerPoint. This is where experts come to give you practical strategies, experts who have actually walked the walk, and they talk the talk. It's not just theory, it's a practical session where we'll get you to do things in the room so then you can go into your workplace the next day and go. This is what we're doing, because I've seen it works. It works because of this, this, this. We give you practical, tangible outcomes, but also the reasons why you should be doing that. So I think there's that mix of both. It's not just a full day of information, it's a full day of transformation, I suppose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we really wanted this to be a different event. So, like Jay said, it's not like next week, and next week we'll just keep going. We're going to cram your brain with so much knowledge that you walk away overwhelmed and then you create inaction. We're going to give you what you need and give you exactly a roadmap so you can actually implement that into your life and into your organization. If you're a business owner or even a sole trader, this is good for you, because you're going to learn so many tips on mindset, resilience, emotional intelligence, mental health, all those sorts of things. But it's also good for organizations and people running teams, because how can you lead a team if you don't have these sorts of skills? How are you going to maintain leading high performing, highly effective teams and actually keep them in your organization if you cannot regulate yourself, show up as a better version and lead them with capacity and resilience?
Speaker 2:Now this event is probably not going to be for everyone. I'm going to put that out there. It is not for everyone. You know, if you're thinking I like the way that we do things, I like, you know, the traditional method, then this event is probably not going to be for you. Because we are creating change makers in the room. We're creating people who want to look after the next generation, to ensure, when they come into the workforce, that they can be seen, heard and valued that your employees. Perhaps even when you go back into the next day, you can go. I actually value you. I can actually see that you do the hard work here and, you know, last week you said this bit of feedback. I'm taking that on board and I'm going to do something about it today. You know, we don't want those people in the room who are going yeah, that was good, but not do anything about it. We're creating change makers to make Australia a better place to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a perfect mic drop moment. It's got me excited because you've just given us who it's for, who it's not for, and for those who are listening, it's the National Workplace Wellbeing Conference 2025. It is Wednesday, september 17th in Brisbane, and one thing that I would also suggest to people is for me you mentioned at the very beginning, jason, it's like we're always the six of the five people we spend the most time around. If you want to elevate your social group and if you hang around, business owners, entrepreneurs, even people who lead teams, whatever that looks like invite them, because people are always looking for the opportunity to get better.
Speaker 1:Yet a lot of people are either too busy to be able to put their head up to you know, I guess. Have a quick breath and see what's going on around them and the opportunity that you can compound your growth by coming with friends or coming with colleagues, because when you leave, you then get to continue the discussion, you get to hear, I guess, what you guys have done really well, as well as the constant reframes, the perspectives and the insights that you don't get when you just go. Maybe you do it when you go alone, but for me, when I always take a buddy. It's like I'll talk about it over dinner afterwards and just continue going. I didn't actually think about that, and so the value that you take away compounds Really encourage people to consider that if you're considering coming along.
Speaker 1:Obviously all of us would love to see you there. I'm going to be there all day because I would know that I'm going to get so much value from what you guys are presenting and what the other speakers are going to deliver, because, like everyone who's listening to this, I want to be better. I want to be a better leader, I want to create better cultures, and there's always something that I can learn and implement in my own life.
Speaker 1:Lauren Jason. Thank you guys so much for coming on. Before we wrap up, is there one last bit of advice that you would love to leave our audience with, and, if not, what would be one last bit of advice you would have given to yourself when you were, I guess, in that burnt out phase?
Speaker 2:I think there's so much To pick one. I think, honestly, take the time for yourself, reflect and ask yourself where do I want to be in 5, 10 years' time? Do I want to be in this spot, where I'm absolutely drained, or do I want to be thriving, where I'm absolutely living my best life? So take that time to stop, reflect and really think where do I want to be in five, 10 years time? What state do I want to be in? That's going to be mine.
Speaker 3:I think one thing is to know that it's not permanent, that everything's constantly changing, changing, so I think that gives people hope if they're in a dark space right now. And then the other one, I think, is the power of environment keeping that in your mind, because that's when things really change for us, when we change who we're hanging around, what conversations we're having, because, yeah, like we said, it's huge. It will change how your nervous system is, how you're feeling, how you're showing up awesome and where can everyone find you?
Speaker 1:once, once again, you guys have a podcast, obviously the events coming up, what are the links? And for everyone listening, if you are driving or you're doing something else at the same time, I'll have all the links in the show notes for you.
Speaker 2:Amazing. You can find us both on LinkedIn. We're both quite active on there, such as Lauren McGee or Jason Marshall, or you can jump in. If you want to listen to another podcast another great podcast Keep listening to Lockie Stewart's podcast, of course, but if you want to jump over to the Thriving Workplace podcast as well, where we interviewed Lockie Stewart and about, it was actually just before you embarked on your 58 marathon journey, so it was really cool to see those insights before that as well. So you can go and listen to that. Or you can find details about the conference on our website. It's just wwwpwiorg.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you guys so much for your time. It's been extremely valuable for me and I look forward to going back through and taking some more notes and implementing some change in my life.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thanks for having us.
