The Power of Brotherhood in Mental Well-being | Jesse O'Sullivan #663

In this engaging episode of the Man That Can Project, Lachlan Stuart and Jesse O'Sullivan discuss the transformative power of exercise and community in men's health. Jesse shares his journey from fearing public speaking to becoming a keynote speaker, emphasizing the importance of movement as medicine. The conversation delves into the benefits of strength training, the role of community and brotherhood, and the need for personalized health approaches.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Keynote Win
• 3:53 From Fear Of Speaking To National Stage
• 5:56 Movement Is Medicine Explained
• 9:18 Strength For Anxiety, Cardio For Mood
• 13:08 Stress Tolerance And Resilience
• 17:38 Dopamine, Addiction And Exercise
• 21:51 Building A Practical Weekly Program
• 27:57 BDNF, Neuroplasticity And Confidence
• 31:47 Purpose Beyond Career And Energy
• 35:17 Habits, Medication, And Momentum
• 38:27 Sick Care Vs Preventive Health
• 43:37 Bloodwork, Data, And Personalization

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:58

Welcome back to the Man the Cam project. I'm excited. This one, this is your third time or fourth time, JB?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Third of it just being us two. And then I was on a like a Teams one. Panel. Yeah. A panel. Yeah. A while back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

Welcome back. It's been a while. Thanks, brother.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17

It's growing longer. It definitely is. For everyone uh listening, Jesse O'Sullivan, we met in 2019. I think it was 2019. Yeah, six weeks. Yeah. Yeah, end of 2019, start of 2020. And you've been on a number of times since you've been part of our academy, and we've done some work together. And now you're just a really fine example of someone who's decided who they want to become and what life they want to build for themselves, and you're continuing to evolve and grow. And it's very inspiring to watch. I stumbled across a post that you put up maybe a month ago where you were talking about how you were going to give a keynote at the Australian Men's Health Gathering. And I was like, we need to get this legend on here, talking about some of the things that you were going to be talking to industry experts and leaders about because our listeners, men, and the women have men in their life that can be a part of the conversation that you were delivering for many people. So thanks for coming back on, brother. Absolutely, man. It's a pleasure to be here. And uh thanks for the opportunity. And so just quickly before we dive in, how was it for you, obviously knowing the journey that you've been on and positioning yourself as an expert in the industry and on the topics, you know, some of which we will discuss today, to be invited to speak at an industry event?

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

It was kind of like I know, it was extremely exciting when it when it came to fruition. Like initially it was just like, Hail Mary, I'll I'll see if see see if they'll accept it. And then yeah, when they they accepted it and they're like, Oh yeah, you're on a Friday, and they kind of locked it in, and I was just like, Oh shit, this is actually happening, this is sick. But the feeling of it was was literally like I've I've built my knowledge and refined it to be very specific. And now it's like, well, what's the point of that knowledge if I can't share it? So yeah, it's just the excitement to be able to share that with the world.

SPEAKER_01: 3:08

Did you ever think like 2020 you would be doing keynote talks and talks? Like, was that ever something firstly you wanted to do? And now along the way, was it something that you thought you would be doing?

SPEAKER_00: 3:19

Not exactly, no. So, I mean, and definitely not when I was younger. So I actually just put a post out yesterday talking about this, but I in high school just flat out refused to do presentations. Like I'd rather fail than, you know, well, I'd usually try and find a way to do it without a lot of people in the room. Um just because like I would physically shake, my palms would be sweaty, I I would literally like my heart would be beating in my chest, I'd be stuttering and splattering my words, and it was just not a great experience. And so it was like one of my biggest fears was public speaking. And then it led me to I actually fail one of my first semesters at uni because like I just wasn't able to deliver the content through that medium. And then it kind of like dawned on me that it's like, well, if this is a weakness, but like I had I knew I had the goal of of making an impact in in men's health, like ever since I was probably like, I don't know, 19 or so, when I figured out that I I wanted to make a solid impact in in that area. And it real I like I kind of realised that if I don't overcome this fear, then I'm not gonna ever achieve that last mission. So yeah, being able to get onto this national stage and share this like this knowledge with people. It was I would definitely say the the best presentation I've ever done in terms of my delivery, my confidence, and it's just because it's like my bread and butter. It's it's it's like it's the stuff I talk to my clients every day. And yeah, it was just really exciting.

SPEAKER_01: 4:53

What was the main takeaway that you wanted to leave the audience with on that day?

SPEAKER_00: 4:58

That well, movement is medicine is probably the the the backbone of it. Because be being an exercise physiologist, men's health coach, and kind of focusing in the in that space, like one of the key things that I've found is is that during the times in my life that exercise is a priority, my health is like fucking way better. And not just mental health, but like physical health, my my energy throughout the day, my like my motivation to get other things done, my clarity, my brain, like brain fog just disappears, like that kind of stuff is all like benefited just from that one thing. So like yeah, movement as medicine is probably the main story.

SPEAKER_01: 5:35

It's such a powerful thing, and like motion creates emotion. And I know there's a stat from the University of South Australia, which was from a couple of years ago, but physical activity can be 1.5 times more effective than counselling and medication for depression, which is mind-blowing because you have to go digging for that. Like to me, I've all I've never walked away from a workout feeling crap, like I felt tired. Don't get me wrong, I've been busted, but I've always walked away feeling empowered and been like that sense of satisfaction and achievement. But you you've been, you know, you've said and I've seen you talk about it, but like strength training works like an uh anti-anxiety drug, and cardio works like an antidepressant. Like, can you break it down for us just for all the lads listening?

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Well, particularly with men, is we're almost hardwired, like it's in our genes to move. Like, you know, back in the day we would go hunting and you know, sprint after wild animals and you know have to wrestle them and all this kind of stuff, and then carry big heavy, you know, you know, game back to the village or whatever it might be. So it's like we evolved to be very athletic and and very active humans. And then as we've gone into this society, it's like, you know, I've got a nice little office here, and it's like I I find myself sitting down a lot. And it's like, well, I'm I'm a I'm an active person, but I need to make sure I still implement the activity aspects because like if I'm not, then when I'm sitting down doing my work, it's it's nowhere near as good. And the simple fact is that that's in our genes. That's it, like that's the backbone to how we are motivated in the world. So that's where the the strength component is more along the lines of building your self-efficacy, which is like your ability to believe in yourself and and to do hard things that you can actually do it. Because when you think about anxiety, anxiety is the opposite. The anxiety is is self-doubt. Anxiety is fear of failure, anxiety is is just not wanting to try in in case you f fail. So when you can strength train and you realize, oh, that hard thing, that really heavy thing that I thought was too heavy to lift, I could lift that. It's like reinforcing that part of the brain. And then with the antidepressant side of things, with the aerobic aspect, I mean there's a lot of studies to suggest it's it's it's more multifaceted. So one of the key things is blood flow. So when you're able to increase blood flow to your brain, it's able to deliver nutrients and remove the toxins and all that kind of stuff ten times better than when you're completely, you know, stationary or sedentary. So that's one of the components. And then the other component is usually aerobic activity, cardio, requires you to go outside and do something outside. Or it's it's almost like the there's a a rhythmic action. And I I think I'm I'm not 100% sure of of of the why in in that space, but it's it's the there's that proof that like even having terrain moving past it I don't I I can't really describe it very well, but it's it's like that movement of the terrain past our eyes is relaxing for the brain and allows it to be calm and down, and it helps us regulate that nervous system of fight or flight or rest and digest. It helps us balance that out and and fix that.

SPEAKER_01: 8:56

It's such an important point there, even looking at, as you said, from whether it's strength training or cardiovascular training, like the key thing, and you've tied it back into like doing hard things, but it ultimately stressing the body, allowing the body to recover and then allowing it to adapt so that we can become more efficient and that you know the mind and body are linked, they're one system, even though people try to separate them, they both impact impact each other. And the crazy thing is that I'm sure you see as well with the clients that you work with, I see it a lot with the men that I work with, is they're just not strong in their body. And many of them see fitness as a luxury. It's like, I'll do that when, or once I get through this busy period in my life, I'll start exercising again. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you're looking at it completely wrong. This is the thing that affords you to be able to do that for a sustained period of time at a high level. And there's also more stats, I don't have it written down here, that like four in five Australians don't meet the minimum exercise targets for the mental health benefits. Like four in five? Yeah, that's freaking like it wouldn't be on the Gold Coast where you are because everyone's out getting fit, but most other places, it's just people aren't doing the things, and it might be because we don't know where to start, we don't feel comfortable, we don't have a sense of community, whatever they are. But if you think about what you've said, like movement is medicine, and we'll talk about sick care system soon, because this sort of leads into that, is we need to start finding a way to, as you've done with your speaking, even you look at it and you go, if I really want to have out the outcome that you wanted, you said I need to overcome this and I need to educate and I need to put myself in a position to. Same goes for all the people who want longevity and want to have a great quality of life as they get older and they start reaping the fruits of their labor from their career. You need to start doing the work now.

SPEAKER_00: 10:45

A hundred percent. And and even when we look at anyone that's successful, unless you win the bloody lotto, it's like you're going to be faced with stress. And the key component to exercise and and movement is you actually increase your tolerance to stress. So I can't I can always I always forget the name of this part of the brain, but I've like looked into it and it's it's it's a part of the brain that actually grows and gets bigger when you overcome hard things. So this then decreases your risk assessment, or not risk assessment, but like threat analysis. It decreases that alarm bell. And so like an individual that is probably most commonly known is is David Goggins. And they scan his brain, and this part of his brain is like the biggest of any human they've ever come across. Wow. So there's literally part of your brain that grows to deal with stress, to deal with like to increase your tolerance to stress. So you're saying resilience can be built? 100%. It's it's it's like a muscle, but it's in your brain. It's it's a component within your brain. And that's where in in the talk, I like being in a room full of practitioners, like I wanted to share the parts of the brain and how they are impacted by exercise. And one of the key things is when we're super stressed, or chronically stressed even, we lose our dopamine, right? So we our ability to produce dopamine decreases. So for those who don't know, dopamine is like the it's not the reward chemical, it's it's like the desire chemical. It's it's the thing that makes us want more, right? And it's it's what gives us reward for doing things. But when that's burnt out, all of a sudden we need to resort to cheaper, faster dopamine to feel the same excitement and motivation. So that's where a lot of blokes self-sabotage down that path of alcohol and drugs and and women and whatever else. And it's because when you exercise, you're increasing that that toll that well not tolerance, but the increase the sensitivity to dopamine and the production of dopamine. Yeah, and and it's like because it's actually earned, it's it's it's literally like it's more powerful that way than it is when you know, if you do a line of cocaine, it floods your brain with dopamine really, really quick, but then it crashes really quick. And then you're you're searching for that high again. But the racking up another line and going again. Whereas the dopamine you get from these hard tasks, they it it pro it's like a prolonged release for a lot longer, for literally hours after. And that's where even someone with ADHD, it's like, well, I love exercising in the morning because like I am medicated for ADHD, which is a form of speed, but I don't have to be reliant on that medication when I exercise in the morning. And that's like an insane aspect for me, where it's like, well, I don't have to pump myself with full of these medications when all I've got to do is just move my body and get my heart rate up, and then I get all the benefit of that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:53

So when you're looking at the structure of programming for some like let's just say you're an individual, you're a high-performing bloke, and you may not be training for anything specifically, whether it's bodybuilding or a Spartan race or a marathon or whatever it is, but you're just listening to what you're saying, and you're like, Jesse, you know, I want to stress myself more, I want the recovery and I want the adaptation. What would like, I guess, obviously, loosely put, it's different for everyone, but a good training structure look like? If we were to say, you know, a five-day training week, what would that roughly look like?

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

So, I mean, looking at that research paper that you suggested, I was I was actually looking through this before this podcast. I really were looking at the same one. Yeah, the exact same because it's it's probably the most prominent study. Like when you look at the quality of a study, this one's a meta-analysis review. So it's taken all the meta-analysis, which reviews of all the other tests, so of all the random control trials. So it's a a study of a study of studies, which is like the ultimate study. And and of that, there's over like a thousand different studies they've done. And across that is also, I think it was like 149,000 participants. So the data, yeah, it's not just looking at 10 people and exercising 10 people, 140,000 people is like insane. And that's across every age. Well, the the average age was like, I think like 24 all the way up to I think it was about 86, but the average was 55. But regardless of that, back to your question, is the recommendations within this study, it looked at session frequency, duration, mode, all of those components. What I would say is like it's like the sweet spot in the middle. There's if you do too much, it's it it's like there's a sweet dose. You want the minimum effective dose. If you go under, it's not effective. And therefore, so anything that was low intensity or low frequency, so you know, only one or two days a week wasn't really effective. Low intensity wasn't really low uh wasn't really effective anywhere near as much as high intensity and and moderate intensity. So when you're looking at like the structure, you want to go for four to five days was the best outcome for both depression and anxiety. And then the total minutes throughout the week was around that 150 minutes, which has been the guidelines for fucking 20 years. Yeah. So like yeah, 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous exercise in terms of the mode, as I mentioned before, like different modes allow for different aspects, but really it it was they were all effective. Right? So even things like yoga and stretching, but then you don't get the intensity component. Yeah. So it doesn't really matter what you do, it just matters how often you do it, and that's five to four to five times per week, and then accumulate a total of 150 minutes across the week. And so if you do that, then you know you you're ticking you're getting the best response from it.

SPEAKER_01: 16:58

Yeah. I think one of the great things about when we look at frequency as well is if you start making it something that you do five days a week, or even for me, I move seven days a week in various differences of intensity, but it becomes part of my identity. And the reason why I'm grateful that health and active, you know, consciously and intentionally uh intentionally moving is it's a healthier version. I I still consider myself an athlete, and because I consider myself an athlete, I make healthier movement choices, recovery choices, nutrition choices, which I believe in the long term, and even though I'm not a competitive athlete, but even in the long term, I think that mindset and that part of my identity is going to serve me in the future. Yeah, a hundred percent. Beautiful. And I guess even for me, like I'm in between training for events. What I'm doing, just to give an example for people out there, is I'm currently doing three strength training sessions a week, one sort of zone two, like essentially being able to go for a run talking to a mate, like it's not intense, and then one 30-minute hit high intensity session at the gym as well. And that's what mine looks like at the moment, and it's covering all bases, and I it it's actually kicking my ass at the moment because I've only really been doing a lot of long runs for the last two years. So being back into strength, it's getting my nervous system pumped up, my brain, and then the high intensity. Holy crap, but it's so satisfying at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 18:23

Yeah, the the the flood afterwards, the the the you know, the endorphins, that dopamine, that well, I mean they they call it the runner's high, but you know, you can get it from anything. And it's it's it's like that flood of all those neurotransmitters, which when you're looking at depression and anxiety, those neurotransmitters are like completely burnt out. So you've got low serotonin, low dopamine. And then there's also another thing that's released with strength training, which is really beneficial, particularly for anxiety and PTSD, is forget, it's like BNFD, so it's brain neurotropic factor something. Yeah, I've got to hear brain-derived uh neurotropic factor, yeah, BDNF. BDNF, right? That's increased during strength training, and the benefit of that is that's what allows us to create new neural pathways. So oftentimes like people will talk about like, oh, they you know, their first thought or their first reaction is negative. And that's like a neural pathway that's ingrained in our brains because that used to protect us. Whereas so if we heard a rustling in the bushes, it was eas it was safer and you know, it would allow us to live longer to assume that was something bad. But in our life now, it's not anywhere near as effective. But the more we allow that kind of thought process to lead and and control our life, the more that neural pathway gets gets like solidified. But this this BDNF stuff, it allows us to lay new pathways, positive thoughts, these then that's that self-efficacy. That's the I can do this, I can believe in myself, and I'm capable. I think that's what motivates any man is like we want to feel capable.

SPEAKER_01: 20:08

Dude, so so good. And I hadn't looked into that too much until obviously you sent me some key points around your talk, and I went down a bit of a rabbit hole. So that was fascinating for me because I'm always thinking about boosting mood. Like I was chatting with a bloke yesterday that's potentially going to do some work with me, and his life's amazing, like doing really well from a career standpoint, super healthy, all of that sort of stuff. But he's like, when I jump out of bed, like I just don't feel energized, I feel flat. And I was like, as we're digging into it, I'm like, what's your eating like? He's like, Yeah, I eat really well. And what it boiled down to for him was the lack of strength training, which obviously, having read what you've shared with me, I was like, Oh, there we go, there's a great link, but also not having purpose, like a solidified purpose outside of career, meaning we've built the career, but for what purpose did I build the career to that level? And why am I not doing the things that I thought would it would provide me with after that? And that's why where I get excited because we get to put the spring and the step back in the individual's body going, hey, you know, for me, I'm always trying to get men strong in their body, calm in their mind, clear in their purpose, and confident in life. Like very simple process, but I think you have to start with the body because there's it's the path of least resistance. Yeah. For most people, anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

For I mean, obviously, you've got people who are clinically depressed and and and you know, severely anxious and things like that. And that obviously that's that's when you need to see, you know, a psychologist, a professional, to you know, that's sometimes that's where medication can help as a as almost see that medication as a gateway drug to exercise. Because it's it's like once you get momentum with exercise, it's like the hardest is the the hardest thing to do is to start. Like once you've started, like if you can hold on to it, and as you said, it's like it's a lot easier to make it a daily thing than a once or twice a week thing. It's like, you know, it's the same for our sleep. It's it's far better for us to focus on our sleep seven days a week than it is to only focus on it five days a week. And so like more is or more frequently is always better when it comes to particularly a habit that you want to form rather than it just being a task.

SPEAKER_01: 22:51

That's a great way to put it. So I want to sort of move into we we mentioned sick care before, but the Australian healthcare is to make a bit of sick care, as you've mentioned, what do you feel is broken and what needs to change if we want real health, not symptom management?

SPEAKER_00: 23:07

Well, one of the key aspects of my presentation was that your your mental health is your physical health. And the thing is, is is like if we wait until our physical health is terrible, and you know, and then all of a sudden that's when we go down the pathway of diagnosis. But even the diagnosis requires to see a specialist and and all of these like you know, lengthy wait times and all that kind of stuff, and and it's really fucking expensive, right? So when you're looking at all of these things, it's like, well, preventative is like a ten times value saver. So whether it's your time saving or whether it's your energy or whether it's your money. And so that's where like the issue with our healthcare is like one example I spoke about, was spoke to you about before the call was was that like if we get our bloods done, for starters, like as a 28-year-old, and I went to my doctor and I said, Hey, I want to get my bloods checked, and they'll be like, Oh, why? And it's like, oh well, just want to see where I'm at. He's like, well, no. Just straight up, no, you're young and you're healthy, you look fine. You got no complaints. And the issue with that is is that well well, how do I know, like, you know, I I could be low in testosterone or I could be really high in inflammator inflammatory markers, that yeah, I don't have a physical illness or disability yet, but I don't want to wait until that moment when, you know, I am clinically depressed, or I am clinically anxious, or, you know, am more more predisposed to whatever illnesses are out there because I I don't know where my health markers are at. So I've gone down like more of a private route for myself and my clients, and that that's something that I'll recommend all my clients to do is get their bloods checked. And you know, if if you have to go down the private route, there's there's plenty of ways to do that as well.

SPEAKER_01: 24:57

Definitely. Mate, I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting how there's an age limit on it. Like I've had a lot of clients work getting them prostate screenings because I'm the same as you, and I've got my data here, and we'll I'll share some things with you from a blood work perspective. But even Whoop, it's only going to get better. But the fact that I've had a WHOO for like five or six years, there's five or six years worth of data that is only going to get better that when I'm in my 40s and 50s, there'll be a baseline so that it will be more specific to me, the results that I'm getting in the future or the blood work that I'm getting in the future, as opposed to the individual who has their first bit of blood work at 50, and they don't really have any better, they're just going off generic guidelines, not sp what's specific for them.

SPEAKER_00: 25:37

Exactly. And I mean, even when you asked me the question before about exercise, the the answer to exercise or your blood mark is it depends. Every individual, and this is one thing I found working across, you know, I've probably worked with a hundred blokes now, and it's like across all of them, it's different things that they need to work on. It's like you'll never see me post any kind of educational content around you should be doing this. The simple fact is that there's only a few things that you can generalize that are effective. One is move your body, two is sleep enough, and then three, like eat enough protein. If you hit tick those three, like they're the generalized kind of blanket statements you can make. But then when it comes down to the type of exercise or the types of exercises, or how many reps, how many sets, how much weight, like all of these things, it all depends. And it's the same for your blood mark, is is you know, if I get my bloods, actually I've taken my bloods every quarter for the last four or five years, like since I've been an exercise physiologist. And what I've noticed is is during times when my training is is consistent and frequent and I'm hitting PBs and all that kind of stuff, my testosterone goes up to like my free test is probably around like 600. Whereas when I take the foot off the pedal a bit with training, or you know, I allow work to take over, that's when my testosterone correlates with a significant drop down to about 400. And it's like when you're looking at those, and that's just my behavior that's different. Let alone you add in nutrition, and like I I don't drink alcohol, so it's not even like alcohol is contributing to it as well. So it's like little tiny behavioral changes can influence your testosterone before even having to worry about you know replacement therapy and things like that. And as a bloke who's 28, like then I'm not not going to go on testosterone replacement. I'm too young. Yeah. I don't want to be jamming my ass.

SPEAKER_01: 27:29

Definitely not. But it's interesting, like it does we don't take into account age for a young business owner. If if they get a coach or guidance, it's just like, well, know your numbers, regardless of your age. They don't say, hey, you're young, you'll be able to sort of fumble your way through, and once you get to 40, then we'll start tracking your numbers. No, no, no. We do that instantly because we know that that's a benchmark to build from, and it gives you the feedback to make better decisions. And some of the things you said before, it's like you can make those blanket statements, but where it gets personalized is through trying things and getting feedback. And obviously, the feedback takes time. And that's why, for example, you've said you'd you've been doing your bloods for the last five years, like that's so benefit every quarter, right? That's what 20 almost 20 different readings for your blood work, which is incredible data. And it's been giving you feedback to be able to modify behaviors, know what works well for you and what doesn't, rather than someone just saying, Jesse, I think you should do this, mate. And you're like, Well, based off the data of my blood work when I'm testing these things, and this is why we should test and track things, if they're important to you. If they're not, don't worry about it, that's too overwhelming. But if it's important for you to improve a specific thing, test and measure, baby.

SPEAKER_00: 28:40

I I'll uh override that comment. And if you can't, if if it's not a priority to you, get yourself a coach or someone that knows this shit so you're not overwhelmed by it. Like, that's the point of an exercise physiologist or a coach like yourself. It's like I don't expect everyone to have all of the knowledge of being able to read their own blood or being able to do the exactly the the most precise program for themselves. Like that's why I went to university. That's why we've got experience coaching people for years. And so it's like if you are someone that's like, you know, not sure where to go, not sure what what your mark, your your blood markers should be, or you know, what you need to work on next in order to get that next level, that's why coaches exist. 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 29:29

Definitely. Yeah. I even like I and this is another point, like I know how to program myself to run marathons, but I still pay a marathon coach to coach me purely because I'd rather focus on other things. I just want to get given the program, do the program, hopefully get a result.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:45

Then give my attention to other things.

SPEAKER_00: 29:47

100%. And that's where it's like, you know, you wouldn't go down the path of learning how to do surgery on yourself. Like that's that. Like it's why do we look at it like obviously surgery, that's a really big thing, right? And that takes, you know, decades of of education and practice and experience. But so does understanding all the different connections of your body from your nervous system to your hormones to your inflammation to your muscles to your joints, like all of these components that you know you're not expected to know every aspect of this.

SPEAKER_01: 30:19

So for people listening who are thinking, oh, you know, and obviously what we would s suggest is what you just said, if you don't feel like you know the next steps, go see someone like Jesse or like myself and get guidance, right? You you you use us to get fast tracked, right? Get a wealth of informal information and knowledge in a shorter period of time. If people aren't wanting to do that or maybe aren't in a position to do that, what would be some next steps that they could take off this call to start making some improvements in their life?

SPEAKER_00: 30:51

Go and measure things. That's that's the starting point. So, and then listening to podcasts like this, like you're already preaching to the to the choir, like these guys they're already listening to podcasts to improve their knowledge and to prove their health. So they're already on that page. It's not like we're speaking to people who are you know singing a carton of beers every single day. I mean, it might be. I'm sure there's some people who do both. Absolute weapons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, go and get things measured. So whether it's your bloods, or whether you know you go and see how much weight you can lift, or tracking your body weight, or like there's so Many different things that at the end of the day, like there's a saying, and it's is it's what gets measured gets improved. And there's a reason that's such a prominent saying, and that's it's true. It's like when you're trying to save money, you don't not look at your bank account, you don't not look at you know the things that are taking out of your account, you're not looking at well, you don't not look at your income. So it's the same for if if you want your your bank balance to look better, you monitor it, you measure it, you see where the gaps are, and you try and improve it. Love it.

SPEAKER_01: 32:00

And what's your thoughts around like community also being an important tool? Like what is the importance of community and brotherhood?

SPEAKER_00: 32:07

So, I mean, i in the talk I spoke about how there's there's like three components that contribute to your to a man's mental health. And there's biology, which we've kind of spoken quite a bit about, there's behavior, which is you know, the exercise, the sleep, the recovery protocols, all of those kinds of things. And then there's the brotherhood. And the brotherhood, I just chose that because it was like biology, behavior, brotherhood, it could all kind of all the bees. The three B's. But it's easy to remember, and and what I mean by brotherhoods, I'm not just talking about your mates or your actual brothers, I'm talking about your support network, your relationships, even your culture and your social economic background. All of these components contribute to your mental health. So if you're just looking at the behaviour component, you're not going to improve your mental health. If you just look at the biology, you're not gonna improve your health. If you just look at the you know, the support network, I mean, that would actually probably have quite a significant impact on your mental health, but nowhere near as much as if you focused on all of them. So, yeah, that that brotherhood component. And I mean, the examples I used in the talk that I'll pull it up. Where is it?

SPEAKER_01: 33:17

Because I think it's like one in three men report feeling lonely. And because I was reading a study uh maybe three weeks ago, I was very interested in it, but like the risk of feeling lonely for those men, whether it's one in three, one in four, it's the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Like, that's pretty impactful. Like, that's a lot of diarrhoes. I haven't smoked for about a decade, but geez, you're gonna be waking up with a sore throat, and you know, then the impact that that has, not having a mate that you feel you can confide in, not having friends there to pull you out of a rut, because we all do go through seasons where we feel stuck and we feel like things aren't moving forward, and sometimes we can't get ourselves out of it, and sometimes we don't want to, you know, don't take that step to ask for professional help. So that's where it's as you said, having that brotherhood who can see, and they're like Jesse or Lockie. You're not being your normal self. We notice that you're sort of starting to keep to yourself, come for come for a game of golf or come to the gym with me, or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_00: 34:16

Yeah, so it it's all about like building a network or or building your circle with people who actually want the best for you. There's there's a lot of people, you know, that you might have met in your life that yeah, they're in your circle, but if there was a time when you're struggling, they're not reaching out, they're not gonna provide you support. They're at if anything, they might even get angry at you because you know you're struggling and and you're not who you used to be. And it's like those are the types of people you want to actually kind of phase out and give less attention to. And you want to give attention to people who are actually gonna lift you up, people that encourage you, people that are going to support healthy behaviors and not just get upset at you for, you know, not being fun or not getting on the piss or whatever it might be. So it's it's about building that kind of well, e even, you know, you you've taught me this through the Man at Cam project, and something that I've implemented in the project up, is the aspect of community is is is so important because you need to have like a shared outcome, like a shared direction. If you've got a circle of mates and they're all going in different directions, particularly with health-wise and and you know, even in business and and all that kind of stuff, it's like, well, you become the average of whatever is in there. And therefore, it's like not a very good trajectory. Whereas when you're around a bunch of people who, you know, they do invest time in their health, they do prioritize their health, they're like pr prioritizing their health over, you know, late nights out, or prioritizing business over whatever else. It's it's like when you can when you're well, they say you are the average of five people you hang around. When those five people are successful and healthy, you become successful and you become healthy. Like it's it's it's extremely, extremely like a lot of people don't realize the impact this actually has. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01: 36:04

It's that it's that compound effect. Like if you're being Yeah, what's your focus on grows? And if, as you said, the bloke's like I've never had more I've learned more about all domains from great marriages to how to build wealth because of the people that I'm surrounded by surrounded by because they're you know building wealth through property, they're building wealth through X, Y, and Z, and I'm just getting to like go for a beer or go for a training session with them and hear what they're doing, and I'm like, interesting, like that's an interesting perspective on that. And then sometimes they offer you to do things in in that field that you wouldn't have normally got, and it helps you break into a different area, and it's no different to having mates who call you out for poor behavior in your marriage or poor conversations or negative self-talk or you know, notice that you've been fucking lazy for the last month that you haven't been at the gym, and they're like, come on, mate, let's let's go. And that just you know helps you progress at a much faster rate. And that's why it's so important to audit your relationships. You must reflect upon the value that the people that you're surrounding yourself with are bringing to your life, and also you know, how you want to be as a mate as well, making sure that you're uplifting, you're challenging people, and you're making their world better. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 37:15

And what like talking more on like like statistics side of things, you mentioned that what was it, one in three men experience loneliness. So what I shared in the talk was there's this thing called the wartime mental health paradox. And so you'd think during wartime, and this is not just like World War I or World War II, but every time there is a war, the country that is affected, their rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm, suicide, all those kinds of things plummet drastically. Not because they're not being measured, but because when it's a matter of survival, it's like we we default back to working as a community. We're working with one solid purpose. And so obviously I'm I'm not encouraging war, but it's like to learn from that, which is the structure and the shared purpose, and that that you know, the the camaraderie, the brotherhood, all you know, almost focusing on on like staying alive and and and working together to stay alive. And that's that's literally how humans have evolved to be. So that it does it's it's a no-brainer why that has such a significant impact on our on our mental health.

SPEAKER_01: 38:26

It's it sounds when you say it like that, it sounds really simple to make sense of. Obviously, the implementation of that is where it gets difficult, but if people can slow down enough to see like where where is that in mind, where am I what what's the common goal with the people that I'm surrounding myself with? How can they pick me up when I'm falling down and vice versa? Like, so it's why men love sports, like and people in general really gravitate to sports because there is a common goal. It's like it doesn't matter whether you're on the pitch or you're part of the administration team or you're sweeping the sheds, you're all wanting to see the team do well. And your role is just as crucial as you know delivering it towards that.

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

100%. And and I mean, this is the importance of of any kind of community, whether it's you're you know, whether you do run a business and you have employees or it's your family or it's anything, you've it to have shared goals is probably like the most powerful aspect, but then also to practice on that. If if you had a team but you never the team never met up or the team never played or the team never trained, you don't have a team. So there was another kind of statistic to look at, and that was through like well, it kind of explained why one of the reasons why mental health has like worsened over the years, and that they it correlates quite well with the decline in religion as well. So as religion has declined, the the studies across so the consensus across individuals that are religious and practice, so it's not just whether they're religious or not, it's whether they are religious and practice. So whether they go to whether it's a church or a mosque or whatever it is, whatever religion they're a part of, if they go to that community and they're a part of that community and they're practicing in that community, their aspects of their rates of loneliness were like ten times lower than those, even if they were religious, but didn't practice. So that shows you once again that that structure and the community and a little bit more of the purpose and that kind of stuff as well, because obviously religion shares one you know common teaching.

SPEAKER_01: 40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:29

So that was one of the other components.

SPEAKER_01: 40:31

Highly powerful. That and I I when I moved to America, obviously religion is in your face a lot over there, and I also have noticed a lot of people that I have been friends with and or still am friends with and or f follow on social media were turning to religion, and I was really interested in why that was happening, and then I stumbled across a podcast, and one of the things that the gentleman said was exactly what you just shared there, and I was like, Yes, they may not agree with all of the things in religion, but it's giving them some black and white values to to follow as a greater meaning, and it gives them a community to be part of that's bigger than themselves. And I you know thought about that and I was like, that makes sense because a lot of people are lacking that in their life. So if that's something that ticks a few boxes, amazing. Like it's only going to make them better people.

SPEAKER_00: 41:18

And I guess that's another component that like it doesn't have to be a religion, it just it's amplifying the aspects of like face-to-face interaction, and even if it's just like this on a call, like it this is more effective than a phone call, which is just a voice, or that's more effective than just a text message.

SPEAKER_01: 41:35

Yep.

unknown: 41:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 41:37

What about a video message? I mean, that's there's it's only one way though.

SPEAKER_01: 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

But it's it's the sharing of of emotion, it's the sharing of of you know, because we communicate through text but through language, but we also communic communicate through nonverbal communication. So, you know, if I was just like slumped in like this and like not really paying attention, you wouldn't really be interacting anywhere near as much. No, you'd be like talking to a brick wall. But this kind of bit of spaghetti. Yeah, that's it. And so that's where like I mean, you had it in the Man That Can project, and it's something that I've implemented in Project Up, is is like a weekly call where we all just get together and we just chat like about our goals and about where we're at, and then you know that at least builds some kind of like just a like even if it's something small like that, you feel like you belong, you feel like you're a part of something, and you are also held accountable by the rest of the people in the group. 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 42:34

But Jay Boy, this time's flown, made and obviously we can talk about so much more. It's been incredible. I'm genuinely proud of the work that you're doing. For those who want to get in touch with you and find out more about what you're doing and I guess keep up with your content, etc., where should people go?

SPEAKER_00: 42:52

Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. That's uh it means a lot to me as well. But where to find me at jesse.healthcoach on Instagram, and that's probably where I'm most active. But you can find me on LinkedIn and Facebook and all that kind of stuff as well, Jesse O'Sullivan. But yeah, I'll I've got some huge plans for Project Up and yeah, it's starting to all take place, which is really cool. It's on the up.

SPEAKER_01: 43:13

It's on the up. I'll link all of that below. But mate, thank you for your time and have an amazing weekend. Legend. Thank you so much, mate.